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	<title>Comments for SF Novelists</title>
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		<title>Comment on Who Was the First Kickass Heroine? by Justin</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2012/05/15/who-was-the-first-kickass-heroine/#comment-11913</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2012 02:37:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfnovelists.com/?p=9033#comment-11913</guid>
		<description>The mention of Electra made me think of Atalanta, the renowned huntress who drew first blood at the Calydonian boar hunt and would only agree to marry a suitor that could beat her in a footrace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The mention of Electra made me think of Atalanta, the renowned huntress who drew first blood at the Calydonian boar hunt and would only agree to marry a suitor that could beat her in a footrace.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Who Was the First Kickass Heroine? by Moira</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2012/05/15/who-was-the-first-kickass-heroine/#comment-11912</link>
		<dc:creator>Moira</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2012 02:19:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfnovelists.com/?p=9033#comment-11912</guid>
		<description>I also thought of Boudicca (recently read Manda Scott&#039;s epic series) and was glad to see Esther &amp; co. mentioned.

But I think Penthesileia, queen of the Amazons in the Iliad, predates them all. She gets my vote.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also thought of Boudicca (recently read Manda Scott&#8217;s epic series) and was glad to see Esther &amp; co. mentioned.</p>
<p>But I think Penthesileia, queen of the Amazons in the Iliad, predates them all. She gets my vote.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Effect She Can Have by Elizabeth Moon</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2012/05/16/the-effect-she-can-have/#comment-11911</link>
		<dc:creator>Elizabeth Moon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2012 01:58:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfnovelists.com/?p=9045#comment-11911</guid>
		<description>Many decades ago, someone asked Dorothy L. Sayers how she could write realistic dialogue for the male characters in her Peter Wimsey books--how could she know how Peter talked to his friends, the guys in his club?   The assumption was that male talk and female talk were so different--so isolated from one another--that they must be gendered (our term, that didn&#039;t exist then, I think.)  Her response was (less pithily) that she wrote them like people...that&#039;s how people talk...and her listener and readers found this amazing, because everyone &quot;knew&quot; that women didn&#039;t talk about business, or work, or the arts, the way men did.

It&#039;s sad, but understandable, that having a female character speak the same words in the same situation as a male character is still perceived as &quot;off&quot; in some way.   And that female characters have to be seen as either &quot;real women&quot; or &quot;acting like males.&quot;  (But then we see reviews in which &quot;writers&quot; are men and &quot;women writers&quot; are a separate category.)   Women doctors, when being doctors, talk like male doctors: they use the same words, the same tools, the same diagnostic categories.  Women engineers, when talking engineering, use the same tools, words, math, etc.    Some people still think this is &quot;acting like a man&quot;--but that&#039;s because they don&#039;t accept that women can really be doctors, engineers, chemists, soldiers.

In fictional cultures (past, present, future) it&#039;s possible to create a society that does not divide the same way we do along gender lines--and where saying the same things in the same situation as males in that situation is not &quot;talking like a man&quot; but talking like a...well, commander, corporate spy,  wounded veteran, NCO,  corporate CEO, research chemist, etc.   What may be different in a woman gunnery sergeant in a mercenary unit from a male of the same pay grade is not what she says in combat or training...but perhaps what she says when she walks in the door and her eight year old waves a report card at her.  Or maybe not.    For the story, she&#039;s got to sound like a gunny when she&#039;s being a gunny.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many decades ago, someone asked Dorothy L. Sayers how she could write realistic dialogue for the male characters in her Peter Wimsey books&#8211;how could she know how Peter talked to his friends, the guys in his club?   The assumption was that male talk and female talk were so different&#8211;so isolated from one another&#8211;that they must be gendered (our term, that didn&#8217;t exist then, I think.)  Her response was (less pithily) that she wrote them like people&#8230;that&#8217;s how people talk&#8230;and her listener and readers found this amazing, because everyone &#8220;knew&#8221; that women didn&#8217;t talk about business, or work, or the arts, the way men did.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s sad, but understandable, that having a female character speak the same words in the same situation as a male character is still perceived as &#8220;off&#8221; in some way.   And that female characters have to be seen as either &#8220;real women&#8221; or &#8220;acting like males.&#8221;  (But then we see reviews in which &#8220;writers&#8221; are men and &#8220;women writers&#8221; are a separate category.)   Women doctors, when being doctors, talk like male doctors: they use the same words, the same tools, the same diagnostic categories.  Women engineers, when talking engineering, use the same tools, words, math, etc.    Some people still think this is &#8220;acting like a man&#8221;&#8211;but that&#8217;s because they don&#8217;t accept that women can really be doctors, engineers, chemists, soldiers.</p>
<p>In fictional cultures (past, present, future) it&#8217;s possible to create a society that does not divide the same way we do along gender lines&#8211;and where saying the same things in the same situation as males in that situation is not &#8220;talking like a man&#8221; but talking like a&#8230;well, commander, corporate spy,  wounded veteran, NCO,  corporate CEO, research chemist, etc.   What may be different in a woman gunnery sergeant in a mercenary unit from a male of the same pay grade is not what she says in combat or training&#8230;but perhaps what she says when she walks in the door and her eight year old waves a report card at her.  Or maybe not.    For the story, she&#8217;s got to sound like a gunny when she&#8217;s being a gunny.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Who Was the First Kickass Heroine? by Elizabeth Moon</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2012/05/15/who-was-the-first-kickass-heroine/#comment-11910</link>
		<dc:creator>Elizabeth Moon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2012 01:38:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfnovelists.com/?p=9033#comment-11910</guid>
		<description>In Barbara  Tuchman&#039;s _A Distant Mirror_, she writes about a French nobleman&#039;s wife....um...de Montfort, I think I remember--who--left behind to defend the castle while he was out somewhere else--was besieged.  The knights he&#039;d left behind were too chicken initially to do much, but she rallied them, put on armor, mounted a charger, and led them out to the attack.  I can&#039;t find the book (it&#039;s somewhere in this house; my books are a mess) but she definitely counts.  

In a volume of Welsh Ballads I read repeatedly while in college, one was &quot;The Ballad of Ievan&#039;s Wife&quot; which reported a similar situation (wife left at home while husband is out somewhere and she successfully leads the household to drive off attackers.)  The refrain brags on &quot;Ievan&#039;s&quot; strength and war-skills, but ends &quot;But better still than Ievan...Ievan&#039;s wife.&quot;

In the 19th century, a Russian woman ran away from an unhappy marriage and her child, dressed as a youth, and joined the Cossacks, campaigning successfully for several years in Poland--a miserable life as the translation of her memoirs makes clear (badly supplied, ill-clothed, often hungry and always cold or wet) but better than being married, to her.  She was eventually discovered to be female, and pled with the Czar to be allowed to continue her military service.  

In genre, the first would be Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore (first showing up in a story in _Weird Tales_ in the mid 1930s, if I&#039;ve got my dates right.)  I read some of the Jirel stories (and others by Moore) in the late 1950s, when I discovered our town library&#039;s SF collection.

It depends, too, on how you define &quot;kick-ass&quot; (not a term I particularly like, but that&#039;s just me...)  If you insist on the woman being triumphantly successful, it&#039;s many fewer--most adventurers, soldiers, etc. came to a hard end, male or female.   I would include Boudicca, myself, and any other woman who led troops in battle.   Maeve, in Ireland, Scathach in Scotland (said to have trained Cuchulain.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In Barbara  Tuchman&#8217;s _A Distant Mirror_, she writes about a French nobleman&#8217;s wife&#8230;.um&#8230;de Montfort, I think I remember&#8211;who&#8211;left behind to defend the castle while he was out somewhere else&#8211;was besieged.  The knights he&#8217;d left behind were too chicken initially to do much, but she rallied them, put on armor, mounted a charger, and led them out to the attack.  I can&#8217;t find the book (it&#8217;s somewhere in this house; my books are a mess) but she definitely counts.  </p>
<p>In a volume of Welsh Ballads I read repeatedly while in college, one was &#8220;The Ballad of Ievan&#8217;s Wife&#8221; which reported a similar situation (wife left at home while husband is out somewhere and she successfully leads the household to drive off attackers.)  The refrain brags on &#8220;Ievan&#8217;s&#8221; strength and war-skills, but ends &#8220;But better still than Ievan&#8230;Ievan&#8217;s wife.&#8221;</p>
<p>In the 19th century, a Russian woman ran away from an unhappy marriage and her child, dressed as a youth, and joined the Cossacks, campaigning successfully for several years in Poland&#8211;a miserable life as the translation of her memoirs makes clear (badly supplied, ill-clothed, often hungry and always cold or wet) but better than being married, to her.  She was eventually discovered to be female, and pled with the Czar to be allowed to continue her military service.  </p>
<p>In genre, the first would be Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore (first showing up in a story in _Weird Tales_ in the mid 1930s, if I&#8217;ve got my dates right.)  I read some of the Jirel stories (and others by Moore) in the late 1950s, when I discovered our town library&#8217;s SF collection.</p>
<p>It depends, too, on how you define &#8220;kick-ass&#8221; (not a term I particularly like, but that&#8217;s just me&#8230;)  If you insist on the woman being triumphantly successful, it&#8217;s many fewer&#8211;most adventurers, soldiers, etc. came to a hard end, male or female.   I would include Boudicca, myself, and any other woman who led troops in battle.   Maeve, in Ireland, Scathach in Scotland (said to have trained Cuchulain.)</p>
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		<title>Comment on Who Was the First Kickass Heroine? by S.C. Butler</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2012/05/15/who-was-the-first-kickass-heroine/#comment-11909</link>
		<dc:creator>S.C. Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2012 14:54:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfnovelists.com/?p=9033#comment-11909</guid>
		<description>Elaine T - She definitely fits in my book.  And was persecuted for it, too, which can be a big part of the KH profile.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Elaine T &#8211; She definitely fits in my book.  And was persecuted for it, too, which can be a big part of the KH profile.</p>
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		<title>Comment on A woman&#8217;s place is not in the refrigerator by Book Review: &#8216;How to Say Goodbye in Robot&#8217; Is Not Your Typical Love Story &#171; The Bad Hat</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/11/16/a-womans-place-is-not-in-the-refrigerator/#comment-11908</link>
		<dc:creator>Book Review: &#8216;How to Say Goodbye in Robot&#8217; Is Not Your Typical Love Story &#171; The Bad Hat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2012 04:38:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/11/16/a-womans-place-is-not-in-the-refrigerator/#comment-11908</guid>
		<description>[...] limited. And—SPOILER ALERT—she dies halfway through the book! Now, I know Alaska isn’t a Woman in the Refrigerator because she has agency in her own death (although according to this flowchart, that doesn’t [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] limited. And—SPOILER ALERT—she dies halfway through the book! Now, I know Alaska isn’t a Woman in the Refrigerator because she has agency in her own death (although according to this flowchart, that doesn’t [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Who Was the First Kickass Heroine? by Elaine T</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2012/05/15/who-was-the-first-kickass-heroine/#comment-11907</link>
		<dc:creator>Elaine T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 May 2012 23:30:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfnovelists.com/?p=9033#comment-11907</guid>
		<description>Joan of Arc lead men into battle, she didn&#039;t lead from behind, and she was always quarreling with the cautious men who were her co-commanders, she wanted to be more bold than they did.  She also almost always got her way bout that.  I&#039;d say she fits.

(read a whole bunch of non-fiction about her, once.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joan of Arc lead men into battle, she didn&#8217;t lead from behind, and she was always quarreling with the cautious men who were her co-commanders, she wanted to be more bold than they did.  She also almost always got her way bout that.  I&#8217;d say she fits.</p>
<p>(read a whole bunch of non-fiction about her, once.)</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Effect She Can Have by Marie Brennan</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2012/05/16/the-effect-she-can-have/#comment-11906</link>
		<dc:creator>Marie Brennan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 May 2012 19:22:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfnovelists.com/?p=9045#comment-11906</guid>
		<description>Honestly, I&#039;m at the point where I kind of reject the notion that giving a female character the same dialogue as a male character is equivalent to &quot;making her like a man.&quot;  I see very little in Bioware&#039;s writing that is strictly gendered as masculine, and a great deal that is &lt;i&gt;read&lt;/i&gt; as masculine because we normally only hear those kinds of things from male characters.  But it&#039;s really more, as you term it, &quot;person&quot; dialogue: unmarked by anything specific to either side.  It sounds weird mostly because we&#039;re used to seeing female as a marked category, and the lack of those signifiers is startling.

I do agree that there is a place for stories about specifically female experience, and even more for stories that present the female experience as &quot;universal&quot; in the same way male experience is supposed to be.  But there&#039;s also a place for stories in which you just get to be the Most Important Person, without gender being an issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Honestly, I&#8217;m at the point where I kind of reject the notion that giving a female character the same dialogue as a male character is equivalent to &#8220;making her like a man.&#8221;  I see very little in Bioware&#8217;s writing that is strictly gendered as masculine, and a great deal that is <i>read</i> as masculine because we normally only hear those kinds of things from male characters.  But it&#8217;s really more, as you term it, &#8220;person&#8221; dialogue: unmarked by anything specific to either side.  It sounds weird mostly because we&#8217;re used to seeing female as a marked category, and the lack of those signifiers is startling.</p>
<p>I do agree that there is a place for stories about specifically female experience, and even more for stories that present the female experience as &#8220;universal&#8221; in the same way male experience is supposed to be.  But there&#8217;s also a place for stories in which you just get to be the Most Important Person, without gender being an issue.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Effect She Can Have by S.L. Knapp</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2012/05/16/the-effect-she-can-have/#comment-11905</link>
		<dc:creator>S.L. Knapp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 May 2012 18:15:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfnovelists.com/?p=9045#comment-11905</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s what struck me about the Bioware games, too. Part of me recoils from the idea that to make a woman heroic you have to make her like a man, but it&#039;s a good (for now) shortcut because men are written like &quot;people&quot; and women are written like &quot;women.&quot; So the male dialogue is, essentially, the &quot;person&quot; dialogue.*

So it amazed me to play a game where there was no equivocation about a female hero, none of the fluffing and rationalization that surrounds female heroes written as women: no justification for why she has no family, why she&#039;s in the military, why she&#039;s so tough. There&#039;s no need to soften/feminize her, nor does she have to prove that she&#039;s better than the men. In short, female heroes usually have extra steps &lt;i&gt;just&lt;/i&gt; to be accepted by the audience as someone in a position a man would be in, no questions asked.

I think DA2 may have been the best about it, because there were twinges of sexism in Mass Effect that, while believable for a female hero, still made me wince because the game is so good at otherwise not gendering the experience. So getting called a petname, princess, or a b**** is jarring, like hearing a man being disrespected that way. You get used to that level of neutrality-- it&#039;s not respect, because there are characters that disrespect you, but it&#039;s like men disrespecting each other. 

*There are important parts of the women&#039;s experience that can/should be addressed as a &quot;person&quot; experience as well, so I don&#039;t mean that they need to be removed. But I don&#039;t think they need to be addressed every time and in every story. Like a lifelong military space-commander. Her story isn&#039;t going to be the same as a man&#039;s, but most of those differences may not come to bear on the story, just like they don&#039;t bear on every last life experience a woman has.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s what struck me about the Bioware games, too. Part of me recoils from the idea that to make a woman heroic you have to make her like a man, but it&#8217;s a good (for now) shortcut because men are written like &#8220;people&#8221; and women are written like &#8220;women.&#8221; So the male dialogue is, essentially, the &#8220;person&#8221; dialogue.*</p>
<p>So it amazed me to play a game where there was no equivocation about a female hero, none of the fluffing and rationalization that surrounds female heroes written as women: no justification for why she has no family, why she&#8217;s in the military, why she&#8217;s so tough. There&#8217;s no need to soften/feminize her, nor does she have to prove that she&#8217;s better than the men. In short, female heroes usually have extra steps <i>just</i> to be accepted by the audience as someone in a position a man would be in, no questions asked.</p>
<p>I think DA2 may have been the best about it, because there were twinges of sexism in Mass Effect that, while believable for a female hero, still made me wince because the game is so good at otherwise not gendering the experience. So getting called a petname, princess, or a b**** is jarring, like hearing a man being disrespected that way. You get used to that level of neutrality&#8211; it&#8217;s not respect, because there are characters that disrespect you, but it&#8217;s like men disrespecting each other. </p>
<p>*There are important parts of the women&#8217;s experience that can/should be addressed as a &#8220;person&#8221; experience as well, so I don&#8217;t mean that they need to be removed. But I don&#8217;t think they need to be addressed every time and in every story. Like a lifelong military space-commander. Her story isn&#8217;t going to be the same as a man&#8217;s, but most of those differences may not come to bear on the story, just like they don&#8217;t bear on every last life experience a woman has.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Effect She Can Have by Marie Brennan</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2012/05/16/the-effect-she-can-have/#comment-11904</link>
		<dc:creator>Marie Brennan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 May 2012 17:09:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfnovelists.com/?p=9045#comment-11904</guid>
		<description>Paul -- I think the main difference in DA:O is that the characters spend less time discussing the Warden directly, and also the lack of voice makes gender a less prominent feature of the character.  But you can still be the same kind of Big Damn Hero regardless of gender; if memory serves, Sten is the only person to express sexist views to you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul &#8212; I think the main difference in DA:O is that the characters spend less time discussing the Warden directly, and also the lack of voice makes gender a less prominent feature of the character.  But you can still be the same kind of Big Damn Hero regardless of gender; if memory serves, Sten is the only person to express sexist views to you.</p>
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