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	<title>Comments on: Fighting for Spawn</title>
	<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/11/18/fighting-for-spawn/</link>
	<description>A mutual support group for SF/F Novelists</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jul 2010 21:27:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Ted Chiang</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/11/18/fighting-for-spawn/#comment-7647</link>
		<author>Ted Chiang</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:40:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/11/18/fighting-for-spawn/#comment-7647</guid>
		<description>Regarding other forms of strength, I think an interesting example is the TV series &lt;i&gt;Damages&lt;/i&gt;.  Both the protagonist and the antagonist are women, and attorneys; their conflict is primarily a battle of wits.  (I should note that it's in the second season that they're in direct conflict; it takes most of the first season for the protagonist to realize the antagonist isn't on her side.)  The series has its flaws, but overally I recommend it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding other forms of strength, I think an interesting example is the TV series <i>Damages</i>.  Both the protagonist and the antagonist are women, and attorneys; their conflict is primarily a battle of wits.  (I should note that it&#8217;s in the second season that they&#8217;re in direct conflict; it takes most of the first season for the protagonist to realize the antagonist isn&#8217;t on her side.)  The series has its flaws, but overally I recommend it.</p>
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		<title>By: Elias J. McClellan</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/11/18/fighting-for-spawn/#comment-7599</link>
		<author>Elias J. McClellan</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 00:36:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/11/18/fighting-for-spawn/#comment-7599</guid>
		<description>I agree with Ms. Brennan, (bracing for the punch) about Pitch Black.  What makes Radha Mitchell a heroine is that she confronts VD (that doesn't seem right, does it?) as well as her own moral-ambiguity-issues.  The Chronicles of Reddick broke my heart in the criminal misuse of both Judi Dench as well as the supremely talented Thandie Newton.  

Not only is TN's character focused through a man, but a pooh-butt man at that.  This after a seeming eternity of TN only cast as a maid, a specter of pain/shame/evil, or some other less than human, less than Caucasian person.  But I'll leave the issue of minority-women in scifi/fantasy for someone else far more intelligent than me to address.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Ms. Brennan, (bracing for the punch) about Pitch Black.  What makes Radha Mitchell a heroine is that she confronts VD (that doesn&#8217;t seem right, does it?) as well as her own moral-ambiguity-issues.  The Chronicles of Reddick broke my heart in the criminal misuse of both Judi Dench as well as the supremely talented Thandie Newton.  </p>
<p>Not only is TN&#8217;s character focused through a man, but a pooh-butt man at that.  This after a seeming eternity of TN only cast as a maid, a specter of pain/shame/evil, or some other less than human, less than Caucasian person.  But I&#8217;ll leave the issue of minority-women in scifi/fantasy for someone else far more intelligent than me to address.</p>
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		<title>By: Kate Elliott</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/11/18/fighting-for-spawn/#comment-7598</link>
		<author>Kate Elliott</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Nov 2009 00:31:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/11/18/fighting-for-spawn/#comment-7598</guid>
		<description>Jed,

Must join  the fansquee for Angela Bassett in Strange Days, a really fascinating and interesting film.

re: strength

For me there are two aspects to this question.

One is the question Kit asks:  how do we define strength?  Is it only about violence?  strength? or is endurance, or, as Marie suggests, a quality of strength which has to do with the ability to stand your ground.

Obviously I think it is all these things.  The focus on the capacity for physical violence as the most important indicator of strength (or on "upper body strength") does a disservice to many many men as well, and privileges a very small group of people.

One thing that's interesting about the mother protecting young trope is that it's opposite seems to be father avenging wife/child trope.  At least, I mean, in American cinema tropes, which are not, after all, the only ones present across the international film industry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jed,</p>
<p>Must join  the fansquee for Angela Bassett in Strange Days, a really fascinating and interesting film.</p>
<p>re: strength</p>
<p>For me there are two aspects to this question.</p>
<p>One is the question Kit asks:  how do we define strength?  Is it only about violence?  strength? or is endurance, or, as Marie suggests, a quality of strength which has to do with the ability to stand your ground.</p>
<p>Obviously I think it is all these things.  The focus on the capacity for physical violence as the most important indicator of strength (or on &#8220;upper body strength&#8221;) does a disservice to many many men as well, and privileges a very small group of people.</p>
<p>One thing that&#8217;s interesting about the mother protecting young trope is that it&#8217;s opposite seems to be father avenging wife/child trope.  At least, I mean, in American cinema tropes, which are not, after all, the only ones present across the international film industry.</p>
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		<title>By: Marie Brennan</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/11/18/fighting-for-spawn/#comment-7597</link>
		<author>Marie Brennan</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 21:06:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/11/18/fighting-for-spawn/#comment-7597</guid>
		<description>Rewatched &lt;i&gt;Pitch Black&lt;/i&gt; recently and reflected favorably on the heroine in that movie: they don't try to sell you on the idea that Radha Mitchell could take Vin Diesel in a fight (hah), but instead spin her as a woman who can look him in the eye and not back down.  Which is both more realistic, and in a lot of ways more admirable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rewatched <i>Pitch Black</i> recently and reflected favorably on the heroine in that movie: they don&#8217;t try to sell you on the idea that Radha Mitchell could take Vin Diesel in a fight (hah), but instead spin her as a woman who can look him in the eye and not back down.  Which is both more realistic, and in a lot of ways more admirable.</p>
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		<title>By: Jed</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/11/18/fighting-for-spawn/#comment-7595</link>
		<author>Jed</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 20:43:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/11/18/fighting-for-spawn/#comment-7595</guid>
		<description>Good entry.

I think we are seeing more fierce non-mother women in popular fiction lately--particularly in movies, where the kick-ass action heroine has become something of a trope in recent years.

A few examples off the top of my head:

Angela Bassett in Strange Days (a difficult movie to watch in some ways, and I haven't seen the movie in ten years so my memory may be faulty, but I remember her as being great)

Angelina Jolie in the Tomb Raider movies (and other action movies)

Drew Barrymore, Cameron Diaz, and Lucy Liu in the Charlie's Angels movies (again there are problematic elements, but these are nonetheless tough competent physically strong women)

Of course, in most such movies, the action heroines generally also function as eye candy for the presumed heterosexual male gaze (http://everything2.com/title/Girls+Kick+Ass%253A+A+Feminist+Critique+of+the+New+Action+Heroine+and+the+Male+Gaze). But to me, that doesn't negate their role as physically powerful women who not only fight men but win.

...That article also mentions Buffy and Xena; good points. And I would add Starbuck from BSG (and, to a lesser extent, some of the other women on the show).  And looking around online leads to reminders to also mention Jennifer Garner as Sydney Bristow in Alias, Anne Parillaud in La Femme Nikita, Zhang Ziyi from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, and Michelle Yeoh in various things.  Oh, and let's not forget Vasquez in Aliens.

Of course, as Katharine Kerr noted in an earlier comment, the question of whether/how violence equates to strength is an important one; I'd definitely like to see more explorations of other kinds of strength, from both men and women. But given that our culture often does show skill with violence as being (at least one form of) strength, I'm glad that we're getting more female characters (at least in action movies and TV) who do show that physical/violent form of strength.

And I think it's worth noting that physical strength/combat skill in these movies and TV shows does often go along with personal strength of other kinds: strong will; self-confidence; standing up for themselves; defending weaker people; fighting evil; courage; fortitude; tenacity; and, for that matter, intelligence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good entry.</p>
<p>I think we are seeing more fierce non-mother women in popular fiction lately&#8211;particularly in movies, where the kick-ass action heroine has become something of a trope in recent years.</p>
<p>A few examples off the top of my head:</p>
<p>Angela Bassett in Strange Days (a difficult movie to watch in some ways, and I haven&#8217;t seen the movie in ten years so my memory may be faulty, but I remember her as being great)</p>
<p>Angelina Jolie in the Tomb Raider movies (and other action movies)</p>
<p>Drew Barrymore, Cameron Diaz, and Lucy Liu in the Charlie&#8217;s Angels movies (again there are problematic elements, but these are nonetheless tough competent physically strong women)</p>
<p>Of course, in most such movies, the action heroines generally also function as eye candy for the presumed heterosexual male gaze (http://everything2.com/title/Girls+Kick+Ass%253A+A+Feminist+Critique+of+the+New+Action+Heroine+and+the+Male+Gaze). But to me, that doesn&#8217;t negate their role as physically powerful women who not only fight men but win.</p>
<p>&#8230;That article also mentions Buffy and Xena; good points. And I would add Starbuck from BSG (and, to a lesser extent, some of the other women on the show).  And looking around online leads to reminders to also mention Jennifer Garner as Sydney Bristow in Alias, Anne Parillaud in La Femme Nikita, Zhang Ziyi from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, and Michelle Yeoh in various things.  Oh, and let&#8217;s not forget Vasquez in Aliens.</p>
<p>Of course, as Katharine Kerr noted in an earlier comment, the question of whether/how violence equates to strength is an important one; I&#8217;d definitely like to see more explorations of other kinds of strength, from both men and women. But given that our culture often does show skill with violence as being (at least one form of) strength, I&#8217;m glad that we&#8217;re getting more female characters (at least in action movies and TV) who do show that physical/violent form of strength.</p>
<p>And I think it&#8217;s worth noting that physical strength/combat skill in these movies and TV shows does often go along with personal strength of other kinds: strong will; self-confidence; standing up for themselves; defending weaker people; fighting evil; courage; fortitude; tenacity; and, for that matter, intelligence.</p>
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		<title>By: Daemon</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/11/18/fighting-for-spawn/#comment-7593</link>
		<author>Daemon</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 23:24:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/11/18/fighting-for-spawn/#comment-7593</guid>
		<description>There's at least three strong mother figures in Edding's Belgariad and Malorean books. Probably more - it's been years since I've re-read them.

Polgara is effectively the main character's mother - and is quite literally the last woman in the world you would ever want to pick a fight with - with the sole possible exception being her mother, Poledra. Porenn's also a mother any normal individual should be terrified of, were she sufficiently angered. 

Other than that, though, your essay brings to mind the old Disney Hates Mothers argument...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s at least three strong mother figures in Edding&#8217;s Belgariad and Malorean books. Probably more - it&#8217;s been years since I&#8217;ve re-read them.</p>
<p>Polgara is effectively the main character&#8217;s mother - and is quite literally the last woman in the world you would ever want to pick a fight with - with the sole possible exception being her mother, Poledra. Porenn&#8217;s also a mother any normal individual should be terrified of, were she sufficiently angered. </p>
<p>Other than that, though, your essay brings to mind the old Disney Hates Mothers argument&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Elias McClellan</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/11/18/fighting-for-spawn/#comment-7588</link>
		<author>Elias McClellan</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:18:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/11/18/fighting-for-spawn/#comment-7588</guid>
		<description>Just realized I mangled the final paragraph to complete incoherence.  It's Clive Owen, who avenges his brother's rape and suicide in 'I'll Sleep When I'm Dead.'</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just realized I mangled the final paragraph to complete incoherence.  It&#8217;s Clive Owen, who avenges his brother&#8217;s rape and suicide in &#8216;I&#8217;ll Sleep When I&#8217;m Dead.&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: Elias McClellan</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/11/18/fighting-for-spawn/#comment-7583</link>
		<author>Elias McClellan</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 02:37:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/11/18/fighting-for-spawn/#comment-7583</guid>
		<description>This is a great topic Ms. Elliot.  I idolize Frank Herbert for his strong mother figure in Jessica.  There is, for those who want to see it, (ie David Lynch) a Freudian undercurrent but the depiction of strong mother, strong child is resounding. I've noticed that it is often 'necessary' for one or both of the messianic hero's parent's to die for the charater to progress forward from childhood to hero-hood.  

As for motivation of author vs motivation of character, well, we do live in a society based on property.  Said he who lives in a state found specifically for the purpose of expanding slavery.  Our laws treat children like chattel and only redefined women's status in the last 80 or 90 years; only limittedly then.  

So of course, in our oh-so-advanced stage of awareness, we can only perceive of a woman as fierce when in the defense of her child,... or kitchen, or bare-feet, or pregnancy.  A man is fierce all the time but mess with HIS wife, or child, or horses; see 'The Jack Bull.'  

Charles Bronson is a pacifist-wimp until somebody messes with his wife and child, then he becomes CHARLES BRONSON.  Ironically, Clive own avenges his brother's 'rape.'  But the English are so much farther along than us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a great topic Ms. Elliot.  I idolize Frank Herbert for his strong mother figure in Jessica.  There is, for those who want to see it, (ie David Lynch) a Freudian undercurrent but the depiction of strong mother, strong child is resounding. I&#8217;ve noticed that it is often &#8216;necessary&#8217; for one or both of the messianic hero&#8217;s parent&#8217;s to die for the charater to progress forward from childhood to hero-hood.  </p>
<p>As for motivation of author vs motivation of character, well, we do live in a society based on property.  Said he who lives in a state found specifically for the purpose of expanding slavery.  Our laws treat children like chattel and only redefined women&#8217;s status in the last 80 or 90 years; only limittedly then.  </p>
<p>So of course, in our oh-so-advanced stage of awareness, we can only perceive of a woman as fierce when in the defense of her child,&#8230; or kitchen, or bare-feet, or pregnancy.  A man is fierce all the time but mess with HIS wife, or child, or horses; see &#8216;The Jack Bull.&#8217;  </p>
<p>Charles Bronson is a pacifist-wimp until somebody messes with his wife and child, then he becomes CHARLES BRONSON.  Ironically, Clive own avenges his brother&#8217;s &#8216;rape.&#8217;  But the English are so much farther along than us.</p>
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		<title>By: Kate Elliott</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/11/18/fighting-for-spawn/#comment-7582</link>
		<author>Kate Elliott</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:20:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/11/18/fighting-for-spawn/#comment-7582</guid>
		<description>Jackie - yes, exactly.  It's Bambi all over again!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jackie - yes, exactly.  It&#8217;s Bambi all over again!</p>
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		<title>By: Kate Elliott</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/11/18/fighting-for-spawn/#comment-7581</link>
		<author>Kate Elliott</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:18:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/11/18/fighting-for-spawn/#comment-7581</guid>
		<description>DanD:  That's really interesting.  Although I'm kind of glad they took it out of the film . . . the way it's done now, she "adopts" the child because it's the right thing to do as a human being.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DanD:  That&#8217;s really interesting.  Although I&#8217;m kind of glad they took it out of the film . . . the way it&#8217;s done now, she &#8220;adopts&#8221; the child because it&#8217;s the right thing to do as a human being.</p>
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