Comments on: The value of the Bechdel Test http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/16/the-value-of-the-bechdel-test/ A mutual support group for SF/F Novelists Sun, 21 Mar 2010 23:09:37 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2.1 By: Link Roundup – Sep 13-27 2009 | Valley of the Muse http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/16/the-value-of-the-bechdel-test/#comment-7164 Link Roundup – Sep 13-27 2009 | Valley of the Muse Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:33:59 +0000 http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/16/the-value-of-the-bechdel-test/#comment-7164 [...] From Science Fiction and Fantasy Novelists: The Value of the Bechdel Test A breakdown of the three components of the Bechdel Test and how to include women in your novel or short story, even if it’s written from a male point-of-view. [...] […] From Science Fiction and Fantasy Novelists: The Value of the Bechdel Test A breakdown of the three components of the Bechdel Test and how to include women in your novel or short story, even if it’s written from a male point-of-view. […]

]]> By: Sunday Wash-Up, 20th September « Shack's Comings and Goings http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/16/the-value-of-the-bechdel-test/#comment-7133 Sunday Wash-Up, 20th September « Shack's Comings and Goings Thu, 24 Sep 2009 21:56:34 +0000 http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/16/the-value-of-the-bechdel-test/#comment-7133 [...] The value of the Bechdel Test Marie Brennan is having problems with how women are being portrayed. How do you portray women? Here she explains a test that will tell you if “half the world” are being treated badly. Remember, half your readers are women. [...] […] The value of the Bechdel Test Marie Brennan is having problems with how women are being portrayed. How do you portray women? Here she explains a test that will tell you if “half the world” are being treated badly. Remember, half your readers are women. […]

]]> By: Aliette de Bodard » Blog Archive » Female protagonists in historical fantasy http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/16/the-value-of-the-bechdel-test/#comment-7131 Aliette de Bodard » Blog Archive » Female protagonists in historical fantasy Thu, 24 Sep 2009 18:59:31 +0000 http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/16/the-value-of-the-bechdel-test/#comment-7131 [...] you’re curious, you can find the other discussions here at Jim Hines’ blog, over at SFnovelists, courtesy of Marie Brennan, and over at Babel Clash, courtesy of Kate Elliott and Marie Brennan. [...] […] you’re curious, you can find the other discussions here at Jim Hines’ blog, over at SFnovelists, courtesy of Marie Brennan, and over at Babel Clash, courtesy of Kate Elliott and Marie Brennan. […]

]]> By: the essential kit » Blog Archive » Women in fantasy http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/16/the-value-of-the-bechdel-test/#comment-7102 the essential kit » Blog Archive » Women in fantasy Mon, 21 Sep 2009 11:06:51 +0000 http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/16/the-value-of-the-bechdel-test/#comment-7102 [...] the lack thereof–in epic fantasy books. Marie Brennan and Kate Elliott discuss it here and here at SF Novelists, Kate Elliott & Ken Scholes discuss it here at Borders Blog, and [...] […] the lack thereof–in epic fantasy books. Marie Brennan and Kate Elliott discuss it here and here at SF Novelists, Kate Elliott & Ken Scholes discuss it here at Borders Blog, and […]

]]> By: More on Writing Women in SFF at SF Novelists http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/16/the-value-of-the-bechdel-test/#comment-7080 More on Writing Women in SFF at SF Novelists Fri, 18 Sep 2009 07:53:32 +0000 http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/16/the-value-of-the-bechdel-test/#comment-7080 [...] her most recent post, she [...] […] her most recent post, she […]

]]> By: Kate Elliott http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/16/the-value-of-the-bechdel-test/#comment-7079 Kate Elliott Fri, 18 Sep 2009 07:27:22 +0000 http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/16/the-value-of-the-bechdel-test/#comment-7079 Farah, that's a really crucial point, that "Women mattered to men." Also re: the reasons for the rise in prostitution. I mean, the huge sex industry in SE Asia was in large part, I believe, expanded and driven by the wars there. Soldiers were flown out for "r&r" in Pattaya or whatever. In fact, that is still going on with the US military. Farah, that’s a really crucial point, that “Women mattered to men.”

Also re: the reasons for the rise in prostitution. I mean, the huge sex industry in SE Asia was in large part, I believe, expanded and driven by the wars there. Soldiers were flown out for “r&r” in Pattaya or whatever. In fact, that is still going on with the US military.

]]> By: Marie Brennan http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/16/the-value-of-the-bechdel-test/#comment-7070 Marie Brennan Thu, 17 Sep 2009 08:00:43 +0000 http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/16/the-value-of-the-bechdel-test/#comment-7070 Farah -- ah, I see. That would be one of those details that lodged in my brain at a young age and hadn't been edited since. I'm not remotely surprised that there's an inverse relationship between wives and prostitutes, though! Farah — ah, I see. That would be one of those details that lodged in my brain at a young age and hadn’t been edited since. I’m not remotely surprised that there’s an inverse relationship between wives and prostitutes, though!

]]> By: Farah http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/16/the-value-of-the-bechdel-test/#comment-7068 Farah Thu, 17 Sep 2009 07:36:04 +0000 http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/16/the-value-of-the-bechdel-test/#comment-7068 Good post, but strictly speaking camp follower was *not* a euphemism for prostitute. Yes, there were prostitutes, but Wellington noted that most of the women who followed the lines were married to soldiers. He gives one aneccdote of a woman widowed in the morning battle, and remarried in the evening. Women mattered to men, and when women were in short supply there was a lot of pressure to provide respectability. As the nineteenth century went on however, the army gained control over men's ability to marry (requiring permission etc). That's when you start to get prostitution, and frequently, you find that it causes an expansion of the number of prostitutes in any where the army is camped--which is one reason why you didn't want an army in your town. Modern barracks towns continue to have this problem. Good post, but strictly speaking camp follower was *not* a euphemism for prostitute. Yes, there were prostitutes, but Wellington noted that most of the women who followed the lines were married to soldiers. He gives one aneccdote of a woman widowed in the morning battle, and remarried in the evening. Women mattered to men, and when women were in short supply there was a lot of pressure to provide respectability. As the nineteenth century went on however, the army gained control over men’s ability to marry (requiring permission etc). That’s when you start to get prostitution, and frequently, you find that it causes an expansion of the number of prostitutes in any where the army is camped–which is one reason why you didn’t want an army in your town. Modern barracks towns continue to have this problem.

]]> By: Marie Brennan http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/16/the-value-of-the-bechdel-test/#comment-7067 Marie Brennan Thu, 17 Sep 2009 07:27:31 +0000 http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/16/the-value-of-the-bechdel-test/#comment-7067 Adam -- yes, but that's one of the points I made in my original post. I <i>chose</i> to set up the society of witches such that they were all women. I didn't think about it consciously at the time, nor did I realize the consequences for my narrative until it was too late for me to change (or rather, late enough that changing would have been a vast amount of work I didn't feel like doing), but I'm still responsible for that choice. Ditto the male epic fantasy author who writes a story where men are the only ones who matter. That's his choice, and he can be judged for it, just as I can be judged for mine. Adam — yes, but that’s one of the points I made in my original post. I chose to set up the society of witches such that they were all women. I didn’t think about it consciously at the time, nor did I realize the consequences for my narrative until it was too late for me to change (or rather, late enough that changing would have been a vast amount of work I didn’t feel like doing), but I’m still responsible for that choice. Ditto the male epic fantasy author who writes a story where men are the only ones who matter. That’s his choice, and he can be judged for it, just as I can be judged for mine.

]]> By: Adam Heine http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/16/the-value-of-the-bechdel-test/#comment-7066 Adam Heine Thu, 17 Sep 2009 07:01:31 +0000 http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/16/the-value-of-the-bechdel-test/#comment-7066 <i>"Named male characters are by far a minority in the doppelganger series."</i> To be fair, Marie, the doppelganger series was primarily about a society of witches, female :-) I like this post and the Bechdel test. Thankfully, all 3 of my manuscripts pass it, but one just barely. I think, though, that my problem is not one of subconsciously stereotyping, but a fear of failure -- a fear of writing women <i>wrong</i>. Your <a href="http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/04/16/how-i-write-female-characters/" rel="nofollow">last post on the subject</a> was encouraging for me, and now I'm working on a manuscript where the two most important characters are female. So that fear of mine is about to be shattered to pieces. And if I'm really lucky, the manuscript will be worth reading too ;-) “Named male characters are by far a minority in the doppelganger series.”

To be fair, Marie, the doppelganger series was primarily about a society of witches, female :-)

I like this post and the Bechdel test. Thankfully, all 3 of my manuscripts pass it, but one just barely. I think, though, that my problem is not one of subconsciously stereotyping, but a fear of failure — a fear of writing women wrong.

Your last post on the subject was encouraging for me, and now I’m working on a manuscript where the two most important characters are female. So that fear of mine is about to be shattered to pieces.

And if I’m really lucky, the manuscript will be worth reading too ;-)

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