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	<title>Comments on: Happily Ever After&#8230;</title>
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	<description>A mutual support group for SF/F Novelists</description>
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		<title>By: Alma Alexander</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/05/happily-ever-after/#comment-7975</link>
		<dc:creator>Alma Alexander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 18:45:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/05/happily-ever-after/#comment-7975</guid>
		<description>peacerenity: Thanks for the comment - the fact that this discussion is still alive and kicking is amazing, and there&#039;s ALWAYS room for more ideas.

You may choose to take issue with me on Jackson, and that&#039;s perfectly fine - but I don&#039;t think that the Scouring is &quot;dreadfully anticlimactic&quot; at all, on any level. You may notice that I am not saying, and have NEVER said, a word on Jackson&#039;s decision to drop Bombadil - even in a literary sense, in the books, I found him a distraction and a detour and that is when he wasn&#039;t annoying me in other ways (I tend to think of him, post-StarWars ep 1, as the Jar Jar Binks of Tolkien;s  universe). He was barely defensible in the books, despite Tolkien&#039;s outspoken affection for him, and he was definitely not movie material. But the ending that Jackson DID choose for his movies - Frodo&#039;s departing for the West - makes full sense only in the context of that Scouring (&quot;The Shire has been saved, Sam, but not for me.&quot;) If Jackson wanted to skip the Scouring then he should have ended the movies at the classic insipit &quot;and they lived happily ever after&quot; royal wedding in Gondor, and faded to black gracefully as the cheers for the King and Queen still echoed off the screen. But no, he chose to go down the deeper pjilosophical part of the story... leaving out the depth. All we got out of that tearful farewell was a grafted-on invitation to shed a few crocodile tears at the final parting of ways.

But I need a better reason to cry than that. Even healing tears.

I am not advocating that everything has to end in tragedy - not by a long shot. But LOTR was a deeply complex book (set of books?), and Jackson&#039;s interpretation of the work made like a skipping stone thrown by a skillful hand across a still pond. It hit the water - hit the high points - bounced a respectable number of times, enough to command acknowledgment - but never EVER &quot;got&quot; the deeper story at all. The movies were very pretty... and they had lost all of Tolkien&#039;s soul.

I did not demand a happy ending - but for THOSE movies I would have almost preferred to be left at the wedding feast. Because Jackson never quite managed to make me believe that I was doing more than watching pretty pictures.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>peacerenity: Thanks for the comment &#8211; the fact that this discussion is still alive and kicking is amazing, and there&#8217;s ALWAYS room for more ideas.</p>
<p>You may choose to take issue with me on Jackson, and that&#8217;s perfectly fine &#8211; but I don&#8217;t think that the Scouring is &#8220;dreadfully anticlimactic&#8221; at all, on any level. You may notice that I am not saying, and have NEVER said, a word on Jackson&#8217;s decision to drop Bombadil &#8211; even in a literary sense, in the books, I found him a distraction and a detour and that is when he wasn&#8217;t annoying me in other ways (I tend to think of him, post-StarWars ep 1, as the Jar Jar Binks of Tolkien;s  universe). He was barely defensible in the books, despite Tolkien&#8217;s outspoken affection for him, and he was definitely not movie material. But the ending that Jackson DID choose for his movies &#8211; Frodo&#8217;s departing for the West &#8211; makes full sense only in the context of that Scouring (&#8220;The Shire has been saved, Sam, but not for me.&#8221;) If Jackson wanted to skip the Scouring then he should have ended the movies at the classic insipit &#8220;and they lived happily ever after&#8221; royal wedding in Gondor, and faded to black gracefully as the cheers for the King and Queen still echoed off the screen. But no, he chose to go down the deeper pjilosophical part of the story&#8230; leaving out the depth. All we got out of that tearful farewell was a grafted-on invitation to shed a few crocodile tears at the final parting of ways.</p>
<p>But I need a better reason to cry than that. Even healing tears.</p>
<p>I am not advocating that everything has to end in tragedy &#8211; not by a long shot. But LOTR was a deeply complex book (set of books?), and Jackson&#8217;s interpretation of the work made like a skipping stone thrown by a skillful hand across a still pond. It hit the water &#8211; hit the high points &#8211; bounced a respectable number of times, enough to command acknowledgment &#8211; but never EVER &#8220;got&#8221; the deeper story at all. The movies were very pretty&#8230; and they had lost all of Tolkien&#8217;s soul.</p>
<p>I did not demand a happy ending &#8211; but for THOSE movies I would have almost preferred to be left at the wedding feast. Because Jackson never quite managed to make me believe that I was doing more than watching pretty pictures.</p>
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		<title>By: peacerenity</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/05/happily-ever-after/#comment-7965</link>
		<dc:creator>peacerenity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jan 2010 01:50:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/05/happily-ever-after/#comment-7965</guid>
		<description>I have to take issue with your comment about Peter Jackson&#039;s interpretation of Lord of the Rings, and urge you to take an alternate view of the scouring of the shire. true, the scouring of the shire shows us that there is no such thing as a happy ending, that evil will always persist in the world. this is part of the reason why many people have interpreted tolkien&#039;s work as an allegory for world war ii, even though tolkien himself stated that he hated allegories: the downfall of hitler did not lead to the end of all wars, as we know. but on the other hand, the scouring of the shire is DREADFULLY anti-climactic from a storytelling point of view. the climax of the book is the destroying of the ring; to do as tolkien did, and go meander for another hundred pages may be illuminating, but it destroys the pacing of the story.

peter jackson made a very controversial decision to cut out two entire books out of the trilogy: the one involving tom bombadil and the one involving the scouring of the shire. he did this because he believed, quite correctly, that audiences, especially ones who hadn&#039;t read tolkien, would react with &quot;wtf?&quot; to this kind of long, protracted, anti-climactic ending.

as for happy endings, i suppose that&#039;s a matter of opinion. i think most people read to be entertained: they&#039;re not interested in the author&#039;s pedestrian views on the meaning of life, or even a particular aspect of it. to me, the purposeful insertion of an author&#039;s or a director&#039;s personal views has only one purpose: to inflate the author&#039;s ego by spouting their viewpoint in a soapbox they&#039;ve constructed. and a big part of being entertained by fiction is indulging in something that doesn&#039;t always exist in real life: the assurance of a happy ending emerging from the darkness. people know that real life isn&#039;t like that, that&#039;s part of why they are living a vicarious life through fiction to begin with. to have an unhappy ending in fiction is, as a general rule, not artistic or realistic, but obnoxious and ultimately unfulfilling.

so i guess the main question is whether or not you write for yourself or you write for your readers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to take issue with your comment about Peter Jackson&#8217;s interpretation of Lord of the Rings, and urge you to take an alternate view of the scouring of the shire. true, the scouring of the shire shows us that there is no such thing as a happy ending, that evil will always persist in the world. this is part of the reason why many people have interpreted tolkien&#8217;s work as an allegory for world war ii, even though tolkien himself stated that he hated allegories: the downfall of hitler did not lead to the end of all wars, as we know. but on the other hand, the scouring of the shire is DREADFULLY anti-climactic from a storytelling point of view. the climax of the book is the destroying of the ring; to do as tolkien did, and go meander for another hundred pages may be illuminating, but it destroys the pacing of the story.</p>
<p>peter jackson made a very controversial decision to cut out two entire books out of the trilogy: the one involving tom bombadil and the one involving the scouring of the shire. he did this because he believed, quite correctly, that audiences, especially ones who hadn&#8217;t read tolkien, would react with &#8220;wtf?&#8221; to this kind of long, protracted, anti-climactic ending.</p>
<p>as for happy endings, i suppose that&#8217;s a matter of opinion. i think most people read to be entertained: they&#8217;re not interested in the author&#8217;s pedestrian views on the meaning of life, or even a particular aspect of it. to me, the purposeful insertion of an author&#8217;s or a director&#8217;s personal views has only one purpose: to inflate the author&#8217;s ego by spouting their viewpoint in a soapbox they&#8217;ve constructed. and a big part of being entertained by fiction is indulging in something that doesn&#8217;t always exist in real life: the assurance of a happy ending emerging from the darkness. people know that real life isn&#8217;t like that, that&#8217;s part of why they are living a vicarious life through fiction to begin with. to have an unhappy ending in fiction is, as a general rule, not artistic or realistic, but obnoxious and ultimately unfulfilling.</p>
<p>so i guess the main question is whether or not you write for yourself or you write for your readers.</p>
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		<title>By: Frances Hunter</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/05/happily-ever-after/#comment-7168</link>
		<dc:creator>Frances Hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 14:31:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/05/happily-ever-after/#comment-7168</guid>
		<description>Alma, thanks for your great thoughts. I totally agree about happy endings! I admit I don&#039;t like a bleak and hopeless ending.The great endings are those in which the characters win a great prize: love, wisdom, peace, hope, faith. And that great prize comes at a great price.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alma, thanks for your great thoughts. I totally agree about happy endings! I admit I don&#8217;t like a bleak and hopeless ending.The great endings are those in which the characters win a great prize: love, wisdom, peace, hope, faith. And that great prize comes at a great price.</p>
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		<title>By: Happily Ever After… &#171; Worldweaverweb&#8217;s Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/05/happily-ever-after/#comment-6996</link>
		<dc:creator>Happily Ever After… &#171; Worldweaverweb&#8217;s Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 21:23:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/05/happily-ever-after/#comment-6996</guid>
		<description>[...] This an abbreviated version of an article on SF Novelists. The full article can be read here. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This an abbreviated version of an article on SF Novelists. The full article can be read here. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Happy Endings Writing Contest &#171; Up and Writing with Rachel Heston Davis</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/05/happily-ever-after/#comment-6994</link>
		<dc:creator>Happy Endings Writing Contest &#171; Up and Writing with Rachel Heston Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 02:36:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/05/happily-ever-after/#comment-6994</guid>
		<description>[...] 8, 2009 by rachelhestondavis    I recently got in a discussion at Science Fiction and Fantasy Novelists about happy endings&#8211;are they cheesy? Unrealistic? Do you like them or find them [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 8, 2009 by rachelhestondavis    I recently got in a discussion at Science Fiction and Fantasy Novelists about happy endings&#8211;are they cheesy? Unrealistic? Do you like them or find them [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel Heston Davis</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/05/happily-ever-after/#comment-6992</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel Heston Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 21:59:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/05/happily-ever-after/#comment-6992</guid>
		<description>Alma, you make a very good point. I think most fiction writers are looking to write about a piece of life, not the overall outcome of life in general. I certainly wouldn&#039;t want to imply that every fiction writer is trying to write a meta-narrative about the meaning of life.

I&#039;m just saying that people tend to interpret stories through the lens of what they believe about life overall. A Westerner raised in a heritage of happy-ending life theology is more likely to accept a happy ending story as true. As you point out, people of Eastern descent who have a different worldview might see the ending as cheesy. It&#039;s not that the writer is writing about a comprehensive worldview, it&#039;s that the reader&#039;s worldview colors everything they read.

This has got to be the most thought-provoking discussion on the issue I&#039;ve read in awhile.

Rachel</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alma, you make a very good point. I think most fiction writers are looking to write about a piece of life, not the overall outcome of life in general. I certainly wouldn&#8217;t want to imply that every fiction writer is trying to write a meta-narrative about the meaning of life.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m just saying that people tend to interpret stories through the lens of what they believe about life overall. A Westerner raised in a heritage of happy-ending life theology is more likely to accept a happy ending story as true. As you point out, people of Eastern descent who have a different worldview might see the ending as cheesy. It&#8217;s not that the writer is writing about a comprehensive worldview, it&#8217;s that the reader&#8217;s worldview colors everything they read.</p>
<p>This has got to be the most thought-provoking discussion on the issue I&#8217;ve read in awhile.</p>
<p>Rachel</p>
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		<title>By: Alma Alexander</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/05/happily-ever-after/#comment-6991</link>
		<dc:creator>Alma Alexander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 21:59:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/05/happily-ever-after/#comment-6991</guid>
		<description>Elias - here&#039;s a cup of virtual coffee on me [grin] 

And I agree with everything you&#039;re saying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Elias &#8211; here&#8217;s a cup of virtual coffee on me [grin] </p>
<p>And I agree with everything you&#8217;re saying.</p>
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		<title>By: Elias McClellan</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/05/happily-ever-after/#comment-6990</link>
		<dc:creator>Elias McClellan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 21:28:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/05/happily-ever-after/#comment-6990</guid>
		<description>Ms. Alexander, I think I need a cup from your pot.  Please, please, please forgive me if I ever gave the impression that I had a clue, much less a clue bat.

I see both sides of the coin/mask.  I&#039;m from TX.  I&#039;m obsessed with good vs bad and who gets to assign.  So I&#039;m conflicted and a little punchy about everything related.  So of course (again) I&#039;m frustrated with tack-ons of any sort.  I loved the fact that Frank Herbert wasn&#039;t ever going to give me a happy ending in any Dune novel.  I loathe that the hacks, I mean, Mr Anderson and Mr Herbert, the younger, are determined to do nothing else.

My contention is that the punishment should fit the crime.  A protagonist/antagonist should end the journey/story profoundly changed.  There should be gains as well as loses proportionate to their journey if not their deeds.  None of this should come at the expense of the story and NEVER at the expense of the reader who invests money, time, and (in my immature case) emotion in these characters.

For that matter, the worst of all offenses is the trailed off, ran out of gas, couldn&#039;t miss another deadline ending a la KS Robinson&#039;s Mars trilogy.  I prefer a flawed but declarative (Hannibal and Clarice on the Beach) ending to an &#039;eh, what the hell,&#039; (does anyone remember Blue Mars?) ending.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ms. Alexander, I think I need a cup from your pot.  Please, please, please forgive me if I ever gave the impression that I had a clue, much less a clue bat.</p>
<p>I see both sides of the coin/mask.  I&#8217;m from TX.  I&#8217;m obsessed with good vs bad and who gets to assign.  So I&#8217;m conflicted and a little punchy about everything related.  So of course (again) I&#8217;m frustrated with tack-ons of any sort.  I loved the fact that Frank Herbert wasn&#8217;t ever going to give me a happy ending in any Dune novel.  I loathe that the hacks, I mean, Mr Anderson and Mr Herbert, the younger, are determined to do nothing else.</p>
<p>My contention is that the punishment should fit the crime.  A protagonist/antagonist should end the journey/story profoundly changed.  There should be gains as well as loses proportionate to their journey if not their deeds.  None of this should come at the expense of the story and NEVER at the expense of the reader who invests money, time, and (in my immature case) emotion in these characters.</p>
<p>For that matter, the worst of all offenses is the trailed off, ran out of gas, couldn&#8217;t miss another deadline ending a la KS Robinson&#8217;s Mars trilogy.  I prefer a flawed but declarative (Hannibal and Clarice on the Beach) ending to an &#8216;eh, what the hell,&#8217; (does anyone remember Blue Mars?) ending.</p>
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		<title>By: Alma Alexander</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/05/happily-ever-after/#comment-6989</link>
		<dc:creator>Alma Alexander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 17:34:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/05/happily-ever-after/#comment-6989</guid>
		<description>Elias - I think I need another couple of cups of coffee before I can function as a fully sentient human, but I can&#039;t quite figure out if you&#039;re agreeing with what I said or beating me upside the head with a clue bat. Taking your post as a reference, yes, I dislike &quot;tacked on&quot; endings of EITHER kind (and I read &quot;Years of Rice and Salt&quot; quite a while ago so I don&#039;t recall details but I do seem to remember that whereof you speak - although I had more problems with that book than just the ending...) Yes, &quot;entertaining thoughtfully&quot; is what I aim for when I write my own stories... but for ME, that &quot;thoughtfully&quot; has to include a dose of verisimilitude. No, we don&#039;t need &quot;reality&quot; in a fantasy story, not the one we ourselves live in, I won&#039;t be mentioning our current wars or environmental tragedies or cultural dramas. But for and within the context of the story, there has to be darkness with the light... INTERNAL truth, INTERNAL reality, intrinsic to the story itself. That&#039;s what makes it a thoughtful ending, for me. Thank you for your comment.

Rachel - I don&#039;t possess sufficient hubris to even pretend to be writing about the &quot;ultimate outcome of life&quot;. I am writing about a specific little slice of that life, a period of days, weeks, months, possibly years - occasionally (in epic fantasies) writers will deal with a stretch of centuries - but then life goes on, before that slice of life of which we write, and after it. So there is nothing &quot;ultimate&quot; about it at all. And perhaps it IS just that I am Eastern-born - Eastern Europe, that is - and that&#039;s enough to make me respond in different ways to a &quot;happy end&quot; mandate hammered out by, as you say, the West. Out where my own ancestors&#039; bones are buried, we don&#039;t trust happily-ever-after. We&#039;ve never known it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Elias &#8211; I think I need another couple of cups of coffee before I can function as a fully sentient human, but I can&#8217;t quite figure out if you&#8217;re agreeing with what I said or beating me upside the head with a clue bat. Taking your post as a reference, yes, I dislike &#8220;tacked on&#8221; endings of EITHER kind (and I read &#8220;Years of Rice and Salt&#8221; quite a while ago so I don&#8217;t recall details but I do seem to remember that whereof you speak &#8211; although I had more problems with that book than just the ending&#8230;) Yes, &#8220;entertaining thoughtfully&#8221; is what I aim for when I write my own stories&#8230; but for ME, that &#8220;thoughtfully&#8221; has to include a dose of verisimilitude. No, we don&#8217;t need &#8220;reality&#8221; in a fantasy story, not the one we ourselves live in, I won&#8217;t be mentioning our current wars or environmental tragedies or cultural dramas. But for and within the context of the story, there has to be darkness with the light&#8230; INTERNAL truth, INTERNAL reality, intrinsic to the story itself. That&#8217;s what makes it a thoughtful ending, for me. Thank you for your comment.</p>
<p>Rachel &#8211; I don&#8217;t possess sufficient hubris to even pretend to be writing about the &#8220;ultimate outcome of life&#8221;. I am writing about a specific little slice of that life, a period of days, weeks, months, possibly years &#8211; occasionally (in epic fantasies) writers will deal with a stretch of centuries &#8211; but then life goes on, before that slice of life of which we write, and after it. So there is nothing &#8220;ultimate&#8221; about it at all. And perhaps it IS just that I am Eastern-born &#8211; Eastern Europe, that is &#8211; and that&#8217;s enough to make me respond in different ways to a &#8220;happy end&#8221; mandate hammered out by, as you say, the West. Out where my own ancestors&#8217; bones are buried, we don&#8217;t trust happily-ever-after. We&#8217;ve never known it.</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel Heston Davis</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/05/happily-ever-after/#comment-6988</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel Heston Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 14:21:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfnovelists.com/2009/09/05/happily-ever-after/#comment-6988</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think happy endings (particularly in fantasy or fairy stories) are supposed to be a reflection of HOW LIFE GOES FOR MOST PEOPLE. I think they&#039;re a reflection of what people want to believe about THE ULTIMATE OUTCOME OF LIFE. In other words, they&#039;re a symbolic picture what we think life should mean at the end of the day.

Ideas of Western culture have been vastly shaped for the last two thousand years by the story of Christianity. Christianity asserts that in the end there will be a great battle (i.e. the &quot;cost&quot; or the &quot;climax&quot;) followed by good winning out over evil once and for all, and the new heaven and new earth reinstating an ideal existence. Thus, Western stories tend to favor a model in which the good guys fight a terrible battle but then, in the end, bad stuff really is gone for good.

Most people believe at least some version of this general idea about life, which is why we crave happy endings.

Rachel Heston Davis
Up and Writing
www.rachelhestondavis.wordpress.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think happy endings (particularly in fantasy or fairy stories) are supposed to be a reflection of HOW LIFE GOES FOR MOST PEOPLE. I think they&#8217;re a reflection of what people want to believe about THE ULTIMATE OUTCOME OF LIFE. In other words, they&#8217;re a symbolic picture what we think life should mean at the end of the day.</p>
<p>Ideas of Western culture have been vastly shaped for the last two thousand years by the story of Christianity. Christianity asserts that in the end there will be a great battle (i.e. the &#8220;cost&#8221; or the &#8220;climax&#8221;) followed by good winning out over evil once and for all, and the new heaven and new earth reinstating an ideal existence. Thus, Western stories tend to favor a model in which the good guys fight a terrible battle but then, in the end, bad stuff really is gone for good.</p>
<p>Most people believe at least some version of this general idea about life, which is why we crave happy endings.</p>
<p>Rachel Heston Davis<br />
Up and Writing<br />
<a href="http://www.rachelhestondavis.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.rachelhestondavis.wordpress.com</a></p>
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