Comments on: Villains vs. antagonists

By: Writing Memorable but Believable Villains | Backward Memory

Writing Memorable but Believable Villains | Backward Memory — Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:49:28 +0000

[...] villains, bland antagonists, character, evil overlord, villain Nothing against the subdued antagonist and his many shades of gray, but I always had a soft spot for great villains — antagonists with [...]

By: Marie Brennan

Marie Brennan — Sun, 19 Jul 2009 21:35:54 +0000

I saw yours had vanished before I could reply to it — not sure what happened. The site was down for a while the other night, so it appears there are some technical issues at the moment. Sorry!

By: green_knight

green_knight — Sun, 19 Jul 2009 21:34:05 +0000

It appears that this site is eating comments

By: Marie Brennan

Marie Brennan — Sun, 19 Jul 2009 20:32:03 +0000

Monsters are different, true. I don’t think I’ve ever really written one, though — it’s not the kind of fantasy I tend to do.

By: Daemon

Daemon — Sun, 19 Jul 2009 20:18:08 +0000

There is a third category – the Monster. The difference between being Villainous and being Monstrous is fairly significant.

By: Marie Brennan

Marie Brennan — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 23:28:36 +0000

Megan — nothing wrong with wanting the occasional bit of black-and-white popcorn-eating fun.

John — damn Martin to heck for making me like Jaime. As for protagonists, I rarely deal well with stories where they’re truly unsympathetic; Burnside (to use your Sandbaggers example) is undoubtedly a bastard, but it’s never really in doubt that he does those things because he is ruthlessly practical in his pursuit of the greater good. It’s the ones where the greater good doesn’t figure in that I check out — I detested Death of a Salesman in high school because I hated Willie Loman so much (along with every other character in that play), and There Will Be Blood provoked a similar reaction from me.

By: John Dunkelberg

John Dunkelberg — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 21:35:20 +0000

I like your classification. I’ve often said that I prefer “noble villains”, but I think that the term antagonist is better since these types are not necessarily noble. I think it’s very rewarding when you can flip the PoV and have the reader sympathize with the hero/ine’s opponent. A good example from recent reading is Jaime Lannister from GRR Martin’s Song of Ice and Fire series, who can be quite sympathetic.

Flipping the tables entirely is the non-noble or unsympathetic hero. I think that Walter Jon Williams “Days of Atonement” is interesting here – I have friends who could get into it since the protagonist is a right bastard. The BBC TV series “The Sandbaggers” also comes to mind, though there we develop the lead character over time such that we understand and sympathize with why he’s such an absolute bastard in many ways.

By: S. Megan Payne

S. Megan Payne — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 19:58:29 +0000

I prefer villains when I don’t want a heartbreaker. Antagonists usually get my heart going. And while that’s great and all, I already read enough angst as it is! (Okay, so your kind of writing is still my favorite and I devour every post of yours, but still…) Sometimes I just get full up with feeling for the ones that have the crappy ending and never do learn that there’s a better way.

But all the same, I usually write antagonists. Though I have acquired a few villains… Hmm… Kind of depends on the story.

By: Marie Brennan

Marie Brennan — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:12:17 +0000

Joseph — sometimes that greyness makes people uncomfortable, too. Which may be less popcorn-eating fun, but can be thought-provoking if done well.

Lydia — if you define “villain” as “purposeless evil,” then I absolutely agree with Bova. Everyone has a purpose, even if it’s just to entertain themselves. I like your point about the emotional investment, too; I can get invested in a hero taking down a bad guy, but if it’s an opponent instead, my investment may be present on both sides of the conflict.

By: Lydia Sharp

Lydia Sharp — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 12:04:29 +0000

How eerily ironic that you posted this. I just left Ben Bova’s site where I had been musing over his writing tips. Number five is “No Villains.” He says that in the real world there are no villains, no one actually sets out to do evil just for the sake of doing evil–they have a purpose (even if it is purely selfish), a problem to solve, and feel that their course of action will ultimately result in the best possible solution–and that believable fiction mirrors that real-life view.

For me, both in reading and writing, antagonists add the emotional element that keeps me invested in the story. I love the internal struggle of the protagonist, knowing that the antagonist is wrong in their thinking, but at the same time feeling they can help the person get back on the right path…if they would only listen…