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	<title>Comments on: Love triangulation</title>
	<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/14/love-triangulation/</link>
	<description>A mutual support group for SF/F Novelists</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 22:45:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Marie Brennan</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/14/love-triangulation/#comment-3922</link>
		<author>Marie Brennan</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Oct 2008 05:07:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/14/love-triangulation/#comment-3922</guid>
		<description>Very true, Anna.  As a professional, I have to say that just because something's hard is no reason not to try doing it -- but as a reader, I can sympathize with the desire to avoid an unsatisfactory choice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very true, Anna.  As a professional, I have to say that just because something&#8217;s hard is no reason not to try doing it &#8212; but as a reader, I can sympathize with the desire to avoid an unsatisfactory choice.</p>
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		<title>By: Anna</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/14/love-triangulation/#comment-3905</link>
		<author>Anna</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 00:04:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/14/love-triangulation/#comment-3905</guid>
		<description>I do love the whole aspect of both the 'combatants' (for lack of a better word) having a relationship with each other, be it a friendly sort of thing or just a rivalry. But I find that it makes it all the more difficult to end the triangle when the stakes are so high--when the characters really emphasize with the others, really feel their pain.

Theoretical case here. Let's say we have a girl, er, Jane, stuck between her two best friends...oh, let's just call them Dick and Harry. Dick and Harry do like each other very much, but they are rivaling against each other for Jane. In the end, Jane chooses Dick. But don't you find it supremely difficult to write a satisfying ending for Harry? How do you find a fulfilling ending for the poor bastard? Is he just supposed to be content, seeing one of his best friends and the girl he loves waltz off into the sunset?

How do you end love triangles in a satisfying way?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do love the whole aspect of both the &#8216;combatants&#8217; (for lack of a better word) having a relationship with each other, be it a friendly sort of thing or just a rivalry. But I find that it makes it all the more difficult to end the triangle when the stakes are so high&#8211;when the characters really emphasize with the others, really feel their pain.</p>
<p>Theoretical case here. Let&#8217;s say we have a girl, er, Jane, stuck between her two best friends&#8230;oh, let&#8217;s just call them Dick and Harry. Dick and Harry do like each other very much, but they are rivaling against each other for Jane. In the end, Jane chooses Dick. But don&#8217;t you find it supremely difficult to write a satisfying ending for Harry? How do you find a fulfilling ending for the poor bastard? Is he just supposed to be content, seeing one of his best friends and the girl he loves waltz off into the sunset?</p>
<p>How do you end love triangles in a satisfying way?</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Aldred</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/14/love-triangulation/#comment-2029</link>
		<author>Ben Aldred</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 04:19:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/14/love-triangulation/#comment-2029</guid>
		<description>I think that's one of the reasons I love Shakespeare.  In my opinion the Orsino-Olivia-Cesario/Viola triangle is perhaps the purest manifestation of the love triangle.  The fact that there's a degree of attraction between all pairings, thus the entire situation is complicated.  Plus, Twelfth Night has the best resolution in the whole twin thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that&#8217;s one of the reasons I love Shakespeare.  In my opinion the Orsino-Olivia-Cesario/Viola triangle is perhaps the purest manifestation of the love triangle.  The fact that there&#8217;s a degree of attraction between all pairings, thus the entire situation is complicated.  Plus, Twelfth Night has the best resolution in the whole twin thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Marie Brennan</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/14/love-triangulation/#comment-2000</link>
		<author>Marie Brennan</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2008 02:41:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/14/love-triangulation/#comment-2000</guid>
		<description>::grin:: I made exactly that suggestion to Mrissa over on my LJ earlier today.  (Not the meteor specifically, but you know what I mean.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>::grin:: I made exactly that suggestion to Mrissa over on my LJ earlier today.  (Not the meteor specifically, but you know what I mean.)</p>
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		<title>By: Diatryma</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/14/love-triangulation/#comment-1999</link>
		<author>Diatryma</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2008 02:31:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/14/love-triangulation/#comment-1999</guid>
		<description>I don't think I'd mind a killing-off-a-point love triangle ending... as long as you killed the wrong one.  Make the heroine choose.  She chooses Bob over Alex, and may or may not make an announcement.  Bob is crushed by a meteor.
And that would be kind of interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;d mind a killing-off-a-point love triangle ending&#8230; as long as you killed the wrong one.  Make the heroine choose.  She chooses Bob over Alex, and may or may not make an announcement.  Bob is crushed by a meteor.<br />
And that would be kind of interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: Marie Brennan</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/14/love-triangulation/#comment-1996</link>
		<author>Marie Brennan</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:37:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/14/love-triangulation/#comment-1996</guid>
		<description>Yeah, it can be a real failure of characterization when done badly.  I think that's why a lot of people in my poll voted for neither the "good guy" nor the "bad boy" -- because neither option, and neither course of action, carries the kind of depth that really gets a reader invested in it.  If there's no real sacrifice down one path or the other, then the choice can feel very flimsy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, it can be a real failure of characterization when done badly.  I think that&#8217;s why a lot of people in my poll voted for neither the &#8220;good guy&#8221; nor the &#8220;bad boy&#8221; &#8212; because neither option, and neither course of action, carries the kind of depth that really gets a reader invested in it.  If there&#8217;s no real sacrifice down one path or the other, then the choice can feel very flimsy.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/14/love-triangulation/#comment-1995</link>
		<author>Sam</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:31:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/14/love-triangulation/#comment-1995</guid>
		<description>Yes, I'm painting with a rather wide brush, but it does accurately sum up my experiences with things in the "urban fantasy genre" as opposed to stories that happen to have an "urban fantasy setting" so to speak.  As you say though, not really relevent to your article. :)

i forgot to mention in my previous comment, that I'd also far rather read about someone dealing with the consequences (and learning from the experience) of having made the "wrong" choices in such a situation, than to have them agonise for half the book before living happily ever after, with or without some act of god removing the other person neatly from the picture.

If the protagonist has a choice between GenericGuyA and GenericGuyB, opts for B and later figures that A was the one she wanted, well that's got far more interesting outcomes than simply staying stuck between one or the other. Especially if there's not actually anything particularly wrong with Guy B to justify leaving him in the lurch.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that often these situations are portrayed as if the only thing that hinges on the decision is whether the protagonist will find happiness, which in fiction is fairly obviously "whoever the author decides will make her happy", it doesn't add any tension to the story.  What makes thinks like the Arthurian love-triangle work is that it isn't JUST about what will make the people involved happy, but also what they will sacrifice to get it, and the fact that what they decide will make them a different person because it involves ethical compromises.

And that's why what passes for "love triangles" in fantasy and sci-fi (not just urban fantasy) tend to annoy me, because it usually boils down to having as much emotional weight as choosing what colour shoes to wear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I&#8217;m painting with a rather wide brush, but it does accurately sum up my experiences with things in the &#8220;urban fantasy genre&#8221; as opposed to stories that happen to have an &#8220;urban fantasy setting&#8221; so to speak.  As you say though, not really relevent to your article. <img src='http://www.sfnovelists.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>i forgot to mention in my previous comment, that I&#8217;d also far rather read about someone dealing with the consequences (and learning from the experience) of having made the &#8220;wrong&#8221; choices in such a situation, than to have them agonise for half the book before living happily ever after, with or without some act of god removing the other person neatly from the picture.</p>
<p>If the protagonist has a choice between GenericGuyA and GenericGuyB, opts for B and later figures that A was the one she wanted, well that&#8217;s got far more interesting outcomes than simply staying stuck between one or the other. Especially if there&#8217;s not actually anything particularly wrong with Guy B to justify leaving him in the lurch.</p>
<p>I guess what I&#8217;m trying to say is that often these situations are portrayed as if the only thing that hinges on the decision is whether the protagonist will find happiness, which in fiction is fairly obviously &#8220;whoever the author decides will make her happy&#8221;, it doesn&#8217;t add any tension to the story.  What makes thinks like the Arthurian love-triangle work is that it isn&#8217;t JUST about what will make the people involved happy, but also what they will sacrifice to get it, and the fact that what they decide will make them a different person because it involves ethical compromises.</p>
<p>And that&#8217;s why what passes for &#8220;love triangles&#8221; in fantasy and sci-fi (not just urban fantasy) tend to annoy me, because it usually boils down to having as much emotional weight as choosing what colour shoes to wear.</p>
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		<title>By: Marie Brennan</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/14/love-triangulation/#comment-1994</link>
		<author>Marie Brennan</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:17:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/14/love-triangulation/#comment-1994</guid>
		<description>That's kind of what I mean; they &lt;i&gt;should&lt;/i&gt; have a thing going.  But it doesn't have to be romantic or sexual attraction to each other, so long as it's something more than macho hostility and posturing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s kind of what I mean; they <i>should</i> have a thing going.  But it doesn&#8217;t have to be romantic or sexual attraction to each other, so long as it&#8217;s something more than macho hostility and posturing.</p>
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		<title>By: Karen Wester Newton</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/14/love-triangulation/#comment-1993</link>
		<author>Karen Wester Newton</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:15:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/14/love-triangulation/#comment-1993</guid>
		<description>I always thought the name "love triangle" was an abuse of geometry (the only math I was ever good at).  To me, the term triangle implies the the two guys (assuming it's M-F-M) have a thing going, too.  A triangle has three sides, after all.

Interestingly, the &lt;i&gt;Washington Post&lt;/i&gt; had an article on a &lt;a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/12/AR2008021203072.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Polyamorists  convention&lt;/a&gt; the other day.  Not just "triangle," but polygons!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always thought the name &#8220;love triangle&#8221; was an abuse of geometry (the only math I was ever good at).  To me, the term triangle implies the the two guys (assuming it&#8217;s M-F-M) have a thing going, too.  A triangle has three sides, after all.</p>
<p>Interestingly, the <i>Washington Post</i> had an article on a <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/12/AR2008021203072.html" rel="nofollow">Polyamorists  convention</a> the other day.  Not just &#8220;triangle,&#8221; but polygons!</p>
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		<title>By: Marie Brennan</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/14/love-triangulation/#comment-1992</link>
		<author>Marie Brennan</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:27:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/14/love-triangulation/#comment-1992</guid>
		<description>To be fair, there's plenty of urban fantasy that doesn't have love triangles in it; I just happen to think they're more common there.  I'm not sure what your other "insipid cliches" are, and this post isn't really the place to discuss them anyway, but there's more variety out there than the butt-shot book covers would lead you to believe.  Especially since "urban fantasy" as a term covers a pretty broad range these days.

Back to love triangles, though, and speaking of angsty adolescents -- I just finished the first book of a YA trilogy I'm hoping to sell, and while the situation in it doesn't break cleanly down into a triangle, it partakes of some of the same issues.  The way I've chosen to play it there, at least initially, is a choice between friendship and lust, and the question of which one makes a better basis for a romantic relationship.  It seemed a natural question for sixteen- and seventeen-year-olds to be asking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be fair, there&#8217;s plenty of urban fantasy that doesn&#8217;t have love triangles in it; I just happen to think they&#8217;re more common there.  I&#8217;m not sure what your other &#8220;insipid cliches&#8221; are, and this post isn&#8217;t really the place to discuss them anyway, but there&#8217;s more variety out there than the butt-shot book covers would lead you to believe.  Especially since &#8220;urban fantasy&#8221; as a term covers a pretty broad range these days.</p>
<p>Back to love triangles, though, and speaking of angsty adolescents &#8212; I just finished the first book of a YA trilogy I&#8217;m hoping to sell, and while the situation in it doesn&#8217;t break cleanly down into a triangle, it partakes of some of the same issues.  The way I&#8217;ve chosen to play it there, at least initially, is a choice between friendship and lust, and the question of which one makes a better basis for a romantic relationship.  It seemed a natural question for sixteen- and seventeen-year-olds to be asking.</p>
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