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	<title>Comments on: Pushing Your Punches</title>
	<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/01/pushing-your-punches/</link>
	<description>A mutual support group for SF/F Novelists</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 13:42:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Josh W</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/01/pushing-your-punches/#comment-2174</link>
		<author>Josh W</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 23:02:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/01/pushing-your-punches/#comment-2174</guid>
		<description>Her assailant charged at her, but they were overeager, not aware of themselves. This would be easy. As the blow arced down she slipped under the swinging arm, spinning under the elbow but taking a crack to her head on the way. Crap! It threw her off balance a little, but not as much as her enemy. They were at a loss of how to react, and that meant trouble for them. She grabbed their  index finger and twisted it up and round. Their shoulder wrenched round as the pain and the tension bore them to the ground, all their aggression and focus now directed at that one little digit. With a flick of the wrist she disarmed them and completing the lock set about tying their arms up. Her head still stung from the clip of their elbow, but it could have gone a lot worse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Her assailant charged at her, but they were overeager, not aware of themselves. This would be easy. As the blow arced down she slipped under the swinging arm, spinning under the elbow but taking a crack to her head on the way. Crap! It threw her off balance a little, but not as much as her enemy. They were at a loss of how to react, and that meant trouble for them. She grabbed their  index finger and twisted it up and round. Their shoulder wrenched round as the pain and the tension bore them to the ground, all their aggression and focus now directed at that one little digit. With a flick of the wrist she disarmed them and completing the lock set about tying their arms up. Her head still stung from the clip of their elbow, but it could have gone a lot worse.</p>
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		<title>By: Sara J.</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/01/pushing-your-punches/#comment-2081</link>
		<author>Sara J.</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:18:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/01/pushing-your-punches/#comment-2081</guid>
		<description>I did aikido for a short while, and I must say, gave me a great intro to joint locks and throws. But I think it's not important to say that you grab so and so by the x body part so much as it is to use language of control and energy, because that's really what it's about. It doesn't really matter if it's a joint lock or a strike, it still needs to be told in an exciting way.I don't really care (as the reader--if I'm trying to learn technique it's different) that so-and-so grabs so-and-other by the right wrist and shoves them to the ground, I want to hear about what the movement looked like and the result.

So you could say “She grabbed one of her opponent’s fingers and dropped him to the ground" or you could phrase it totally differently. It doesn't say much to me when someone writes "She hit her opponent in the face and broke his nose". It's different if you write: "She slammed the heel of her hand into his nose with a sharp movement, blood seeping from his nostrils."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did aikido for a short while, and I must say, gave me a great intro to joint locks and throws. But I think it&#8217;s not important to say that you grab so and so by the x body part so much as it is to use language of control and energy, because that&#8217;s really what it&#8217;s about. It doesn&#8217;t really matter if it&#8217;s a joint lock or a strike, it still needs to be told in an exciting way.I don&#8217;t really care (as the reader&#8211;if I&#8217;m trying to learn technique it&#8217;s different) that so-and-so grabs so-and-other by the right wrist and shoves them to the ground, I want to hear about what the movement looked like and the result.</p>
<p>So you could say “She grabbed one of her opponent’s fingers and dropped him to the ground&#8221; or you could phrase it totally differently. It doesn&#8217;t say much to me when someone writes &#8220;She hit her opponent in the face and broke his nose&#8221;. It&#8217;s different if you write: &#8220;She slammed the heel of her hand into his nose with a sharp movement, blood seeping from his nostrils.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: James Alan Gardner</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/01/pushing-your-punches/#comment-1873</link>
		<author>James Alan Gardner</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 00:57:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/01/pushing-your-punches/#comment-1873</guid>
		<description>One nice thing about joint-locks is that when they work, they stop the fight.  (This assumes the fight is one-on-one...but then, you wouldn't use joint-locks if you're fighting multiple attackers.)

Since the fight is going to stop, the tempo of the action is going to change.  Therefore, you don't necessarily have to describe a joint-lock at the same pace as what has gone before.  I could, for example, envision a fight told in a fast-and-furious tone, which then switches to a slow and detailed description of what happens when the tendons in your wrist are twisted a quarter of an inch farther than they're prepared to go.  Follow the pain of up the forearm to the shoulder, and how the whole body involuntarily doubles over...etc., etc.  It would be a lovely way of selling the scene (and hey, a typical science fiction reader would get a kick out of the anatomy lesson).

Or, if you have a smartass point-of-view character (as many of us do), you might say, "The shoulder bone's connected to the arm bone, the arm bone's connected to the wrist bone, the wrist bone's connected to the finger bone, so if I do *this* to your pinkie...look, you smack your nose on the floor!"</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One nice thing about joint-locks is that when they work, they stop the fight.  (This assumes the fight is one-on-one&#8230;but then, you wouldn&#8217;t use joint-locks if you&#8217;re fighting multiple attackers.)</p>
<p>Since the fight is going to stop, the tempo of the action is going to change.  Therefore, you don&#8217;t necessarily have to describe a joint-lock at the same pace as what has gone before.  I could, for example, envision a fight told in a fast-and-furious tone, which then switches to a slow and detailed description of what happens when the tendons in your wrist are twisted a quarter of an inch farther than they&#8217;re prepared to go.  Follow the pain of up the forearm to the shoulder, and how the whole body involuntarily doubles over&#8230;etc., etc.  It would be a lovely way of selling the scene (and hey, a typical science fiction reader would get a kick out of the anatomy lesson).</p>
<p>Or, if you have a smartass point-of-view character (as many of us do), you might say, &#8220;The shoulder bone&#8217;s connected to the arm bone, the arm bone&#8217;s connected to the wrist bone, the wrist bone&#8217;s connected to the finger bone, so if I do *this* to your pinkie&#8230;look, you smack your nose on the floor!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew Claxton</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/01/pushing-your-punches/#comment-1850</link>
		<author>Matthew Claxton</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 17:29:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/01/pushing-your-punches/#comment-1850</guid>
		<description>I've fenced for several years, and while I haven't used that knowledge in a (published) story yet, I plan to someday. Knowing what to leave in and take out, with a swordfight, is tricky. I have the terminology to describe the fight in great detail (Adam lunged forward, but Bob parried the blade away in seconde, slashing back with a quick riposte) but it's neither interesting nor understandable to a layperson. And if I don't describe it in that level of detail, I feel like I'm just holding a puppet show. (Adam and Bob waved their rapiers around for a while, until Bob stabbed Adam.)

In the one duel/fencing scene I've written, I concentrated on the physical exhaustion, the pain of small wounds from minor hits, and the movement and terrain. And, of course, I had my characters talk to one another as they circled.

Fencing also moves so quickly that it's impossible to film properly. Seriously, watch Olympic fencing sometime. It's just lunge-thrust-point-done. Competition fencing requires four corner referees to watch for hits, plus a president to make the final calls. This means that it takes paragraphs to describe moves that take just fractions of seconds. 

Finally, if you want to see some really damn good stage fencing, check out the 1950s classic Scaramouche (cheesy acting and plot, very realistic smallsword fighting, recommended highly by my fencing instructor) and The Duellists, with Harvey Keitel and Keith Carradine. Especially watch the second smallsword duel, between Keitel and Carradine, for realism. It's over in a few moves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve fenced for several years, and while I haven&#8217;t used that knowledge in a (published) story yet, I plan to someday. Knowing what to leave in and take out, with a swordfight, is tricky. I have the terminology to describe the fight in great detail (Adam lunged forward, but Bob parried the blade away in seconde, slashing back with a quick riposte) but it&#8217;s neither interesting nor understandable to a layperson. And if I don&#8217;t describe it in that level of detail, I feel like I&#8217;m just holding a puppet show. (Adam and Bob waved their rapiers around for a while, until Bob stabbed Adam.)</p>
<p>In the one duel/fencing scene I&#8217;ve written, I concentrated on the physical exhaustion, the pain of small wounds from minor hits, and the movement and terrain. And, of course, I had my characters talk to one another as they circled.</p>
<p>Fencing also moves so quickly that it&#8217;s impossible to film properly. Seriously, watch Olympic fencing sometime. It&#8217;s just lunge-thrust-point-done. Competition fencing requires four corner referees to watch for hits, plus a president to make the final calls. This means that it takes paragraphs to describe moves that take just fractions of seconds. </p>
<p>Finally, if you want to see some really damn good stage fencing, check out the 1950s classic Scaramouche (cheesy acting and plot, very realistic smallsword fighting, recommended highly by my fencing instructor) and The Duellists, with Harvey Keitel and Keith Carradine. Especially watch the second smallsword duel, between Keitel and Carradine, for realism. It&#8217;s over in a few moves.</p>
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		<title>By: Soni</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/01/pushing-your-punches/#comment-1847</link>
		<author>Soni</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 03:27:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/01/pushing-your-punches/#comment-1847</guid>
		<description>The fight scenes I find most realistic tend to be the ones Dick Francis writes. His jockeys and other protags usually get the ever loving crap beat out of them at least once in the book, and often several times. And they actually get hurt, stay hurt and have to deal with being hurt for the rest of the book. Unlike a lot of fictional characters, who can apparently take a cannonball to the head and shake it off by the next day with nothing more than a heroically-managed headache to show for it.

The cool think is that his jockey characters are so used to getting the snot pounded out of them on the track that they know how to deal with pain and injury and still operate, so that allows his characters to get things done while most of us would be hiding out in the ICU. They play through the pain, so you get the best of both worlds - realistic fight consequences, without a week-long break in the action.

Although to be honest my favorite fight scene ever was with Rowdy Roddy Piper in They Live!  Totally bogus in terms of realism, but dead-on if you're jonesing for an extended play, all-out butt whuppin' performed by two boys who really know how to sell a good throwdown.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fight scenes I find most realistic tend to be the ones Dick Francis writes. His jockeys and other protags usually get the ever loving crap beat out of them at least once in the book, and often several times. And they actually get hurt, stay hurt and have to deal with being hurt for the rest of the book. Unlike a lot of fictional characters, who can apparently take a cannonball to the head and shake it off by the next day with nothing more than a heroically-managed headache to show for it.</p>
<p>The cool think is that his jockey characters are so used to getting the snot pounded out of them on the track that they know how to deal with pain and injury and still operate, so that allows his characters to get things done while most of us would be hiding out in the ICU. They play through the pain, so you get the best of both worlds - realistic fight consequences, without a week-long break in the action.</p>
<p>Although to be honest my favorite fight scene ever was with Rowdy Roddy Piper in They Live!  Totally bogus in terms of realism, but dead-on if you&#8217;re jonesing for an extended play, all-out butt whuppin&#8217; performed by two boys who really know how to sell a good throwdown.</p>
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		<title>By: Marie Brennan</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/01/pushing-your-punches/#comment-1845</link>
		<author>Marie Brennan</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 23:31:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/01/pushing-your-punches/#comment-1845</guid>
		<description>Oh, in movies I can enjoy a good spectacle, because I get to see highly-trained martial artists doing pretty things.  I enjoy that the same way I enjoy a dance performance or Cirque du Soleil: aesthetically.  But that aspect doesn't translate terribly well to prose, so pages of how your hero hews down horrible . . . crap, can't thing of a synonym for "monster" that starts with H . . . anyway, you know what I mean.  Snooze, indeed.  On the page, I *need* more than just flashy moves, because the flash just isn't there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, in movies I can enjoy a good spectacle, because I get to see highly-trained martial artists doing pretty things.  I enjoy that the same way I enjoy a dance performance or Cirque du Soleil: aesthetically.  But that aspect doesn&#8217;t translate terribly well to prose, so pages of how your hero hews down horrible . . . crap, can&#8217;t thing of a synonym for &#8220;monster&#8221; that starts with H . . . anyway, you know what I mean.  Snooze, indeed.  On the page, I *need* more than just flashy moves, because the flash just isn&#8217;t there.</p>
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		<title>By: Jenn Reese</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/01/pushing-your-punches/#comment-1842</link>
		<author>Jenn Reese</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 22:19:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/01/pushing-your-punches/#comment-1842</guid>
		<description>Marie: Yes, Yes, and I'll go read that right away!

Seriously, I couldn't agree more with you about #1. A lot of movies make the mistake of thinking action scenes are just for eyeball kicks and explosions -- Snooze! Give me a fight scene with plot *and* character development, and I'll be your fan for life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marie: Yes, Yes, and I&#8217;ll go read that right away!</p>
<p>Seriously, I couldn&#8217;t agree more with you about #1. A lot of movies make the mistake of thinking action scenes are just for eyeball kicks and explosions &#8212; Snooze! Give me a fight scene with plot *and* character development, and I&#8217;ll be your fan for life.</p>
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		<title>By: Marie Brennan</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/01/pushing-your-punches/#comment-1841</link>
		<author>Marie Brennan</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 21:47:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/01/pushing-your-punches/#comment-1841</guid>
		<description>Wa-hootie!  One of my favorite topics. ^_^

My thoughts on this would fill several blog posts (which someday I'll get around to making), but I can boil it all down to three things:

1) A fight, like any other scene, should serve multiple purposes at once, and if it doesn't you should just gloss over it.  Don't put in in just for spectacle.  Further the plot, develop character, and so on.

2) Even if you don't know the mechanics of fighting, you can make a damn interesting scene out of those things mentioned above.  People behave differently when their lives and bodily integrity are on the line; what does that do to your character?  Get into her head and focus on what she's thinking and feeling.  Or give physical details like people gasping for breath or interacting with their environment.  You don't need the technical terminology to make it interesting.

3) Go read Dorothy Dunnett's &lt;i&gt;The Game of Kings&lt;/i&gt;, and gape in awe at the single best third-person fight scene fiction is capable of holding.

And yes, the quick action/slow narration conflict makes these things a real challenge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wa-hootie!  One of my favorite topics. ^_^</p>
<p>My thoughts on this would fill several blog posts (which someday I&#8217;ll get around to making), but I can boil it all down to three things:</p>
<p>1) A fight, like any other scene, should serve multiple purposes at once, and if it doesn&#8217;t you should just gloss over it.  Don&#8217;t put in in just for spectacle.  Further the plot, develop character, and so on.</p>
<p>2) Even if you don&#8217;t know the mechanics of fighting, you can make a damn interesting scene out of those things mentioned above.  People behave differently when their lives and bodily integrity are on the line; what does that do to your character?  Get into her head and focus on what she&#8217;s thinking and feeling.  Or give physical details like people gasping for breath or interacting with their environment.  You don&#8217;t need the technical terminology to make it interesting.</p>
<p>3) Go read Dorothy Dunnett&#8217;s <i>The Game of Kings</i>, and gape in awe at the single best third-person fight scene fiction is capable of holding.</p>
<p>And yes, the quick action/slow narration conflict makes these things a real challenge.</p>
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		<title>By: Jenn Reese</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/01/pushing-your-punches/#comment-1840</link>
		<author>Jenn Reese</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 21:25:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/01/pushing-your-punches/#comment-1840</guid>
		<description>Elf: You are right, it does become more possible if you can switch point of views and describe what is happening to the victim. I wonder, though, if a non-martial arts reader will think I'm cheating, since some joint-manipulation techniques are so ridiculously effective for so little effort. (Yes, I worry about a lot of silly things...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Elf: You are right, it does become more possible if you can switch point of views and describe what is happening to the victim. I wonder, though, if a non-martial arts reader will think I&#8217;m cheating, since some joint-manipulation techniques are so ridiculously effective for so little effort. (Yes, I worry about a lot of silly things&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Jenn Reese</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/01/pushing-your-punches/#comment-1839</link>
		<author>Jenn Reese</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 21:22:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2008/02/01/pushing-your-punches/#comment-1839</guid>
		<description>Karen: You are so right! I love fight scenes, but my writing slows to a glacial pace when I get to them. I might spend two hours writing two paragraphs for exactly the reasons you state: You have to be crystal-clear about what's happening, and you have to keep up the pace. It's incredibly difficult. The only scenes I find more difficult to write are sex scenes... for kind of the same reasons. :)

I should clarify that I'm far from a martial arts expert, unless watching &lt;i&gt;Enter the Dragon&lt;/i&gt; six million times qualifies me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karen: You are so right! I love fight scenes, but my writing slows to a glacial pace when I get to them. I might spend two hours writing two paragraphs for exactly the reasons you state: You have to be crystal-clear about what&#8217;s happening, and you have to keep up the pace. It&#8217;s incredibly difficult. The only scenes I find more difficult to write are sex scenes&#8230; for kind of the same reasons. <img src='http://www.sfnovelists.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I should clarify that I&#8217;m far from a martial arts expert, unless watching <i>Enter the Dragon</i> six million times qualifies me.</p>
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