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	<title>Comments on: Respecting history</title>
	<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/09/16/respecting-history/</link>
	<description>A mutual support group for SF/F Novelists</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 07:26:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Why I will never write a Mayan apocalypse novel at SF Novelists</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/09/16/respecting-history/#comment-733</link>
		<author>Why I will never write a Mayan apocalypse novel at SF Novelists</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 09:02:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/09/16/respecting-history/#comment-733</guid>
		<description>[...] my post last month, about respecting history. That goes quabillion-duple when I&#8217;m talking about people out there in the world [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] my post last month, about respecting history. That goes quabillion-duple when I&#8217;m talking about people out there in the world [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: S.C. Butler</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/09/16/respecting-history/#comment-456</link>
		<author>S.C. Butler</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 17:11:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/09/16/respecting-history/#comment-456</guid>
		<description>Jess-

Flashman and the Tiger is one of the best in the series.  I should it put of on the top of my list to reread.  And you're right about recommending Flashy to other readers.  I stopped years ago after too many people told me they couldn't stand his sexism, racism, and bullying, whether he was honest about it or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jess-</p>
<p>Flashman and the Tiger is one of the best in the series.  I should it put of on the top of my list to reread.  And you&#8217;re right about recommending Flashy to other readers.  I stopped years ago after too many people told me they couldn&#8217;t stand his sexism, racism, and bullying, whether he was honest about it or not.</p>
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		<title>By: Diatryma</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/09/16/respecting-history/#comment-435</link>
		<author>Diatryma</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:55:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/09/16/respecting-history/#comment-435</guid>
		<description>At some point in the Aubrey-Maturin books, there's a note saying, more or less, "I've run out of war for the moment, because ships take so long to get there." It mentioned an 1812a, 1812b, et cetera, just because you can't have your characters becalmed in the Pacific while the plot's going on elsewhere.  
However, I am sure that Maturin could have rigged up a nice FTL drive for the ship if necessary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At some point in the Aubrey-Maturin books, there&#8217;s a note saying, more or less, &#8220;I&#8217;ve run out of war for the moment, because ships take so long to get there.&#8221; It mentioned an 1812a, 1812b, et cetera, just because you can&#8217;t have your characters becalmed in the Pacific while the plot&#8217;s going on elsewhere.<br />
However, I am sure that Maturin could have rigged up a nice FTL drive for the ship if necessary.</p>
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		<title>By: Jess Nevins</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/09/16/respecting-history/#comment-433</link>
		<author>Jess Nevins</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 13:46:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/09/16/respecting-history/#comment-433</guid>
		<description>S.C.--

The most recent one I read was Flashman and the Tiger, so I referred to that. Look at how Flashy adresses the reader about Elgin's decision. His comments boil down to "you really can't judge us because you weren't here." 

As for O'Brian--I think he'd have found lots for Aubrey &#38; Maturin to do elsewhere. The Brits were militarily busy throughout the 19th century, after all--lots of the "Little Wars" that A&#38;M could have taken part in. 

Marie--

Flashman isn't for everyone--his personality grates on some readers--but I think the books are very solid historically, and well-footnoted to boot. 

And, hey, any author who has a scene in which Sherlock Holmes' snap deductions are shown to be logical but wrong has a lot going for him. *g*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>S.C.&#8211;</p>
<p>The most recent one I read was Flashman and the Tiger, so I referred to that. Look at how Flashy adresses the reader about Elgin&#8217;s decision. His comments boil down to &#8220;you really can&#8217;t judge us because you weren&#8217;t here.&#8221; </p>
<p>As for O&#8217;Brian&#8211;I think he&#8217;d have found lots for Aubrey &amp; Maturin to do elsewhere. The Brits were militarily busy throughout the 19th century, after all&#8211;lots of the &#8220;Little Wars&#8221; that A&amp;M could have taken part in. </p>
<p>Marie&#8211;</p>
<p>Flashman isn&#8217;t for everyone&#8211;his personality grates on some readers&#8211;but I think the books are very solid historically, and well-footnoted to boot. </p>
<p>And, hey, any author who has a scene in which Sherlock Holmes&#8217; snap deductions are shown to be logical but wrong has a lot going for him. *g*</p>
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		<title>By: Marie Brennan</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/09/16/respecting-history/#comment-431</link>
		<author>Marie Brennan</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 04:42:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/09/16/respecting-history/#comment-431</guid>
		<description>Hi, Jess!  (I wish I knew the logic by which Wordpress orders these comments.  Does it pull the timestamp from the computer used to post?  Because I didn't get notification of your comment until about #7 or #8, yet there you are up at #2, where you most definitely were not before.)

I haven't read Flashman, so I can't judge it personally.  But based on what you've said, it sounds like Fraser knew whereof he spoke, and that's really what I'm getting at.  Whatever you're planning on doing with your history, know it first, and think carefully about the choices you make.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, Jess!  (I wish I knew the logic by which Wordpress orders these comments.  Does it pull the timestamp from the computer used to post?  Because I didn&#8217;t get notification of your comment until about #7 or #8, yet there you are up at #2, where you most definitely were not before.)</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t read Flashman, so I can&#8217;t judge it personally.  But based on what you&#8217;ve said, it sounds like Fraser knew whereof he spoke, and that&#8217;s really what I&#8217;m getting at.  Whatever you&#8217;re planning on doing with your history, know it first, and think carefully about the choices you make.</p>
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		<title>By: S.C. Butler</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/09/16/respecting-history/#comment-427</link>
		<author>S.C. Butler</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 21:52:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/09/16/respecting-history/#comment-427</guid>
		<description>Jess-

Interesting take on Flashman - I'll have to look for what you suggest the next time I read one.  I've always felt Fraser, via Flashman, took every opportunity he had to stick a thumb in the Empire's eye.

As you say, the Aubrey/Maturin books are excellent.  But what do you think O'Brien was doing at the end when he ran out of time for Napoleonic derring-do?  Secret history or alternate?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jess-</p>
<p>Interesting take on Flashman - I&#8217;ll have to look for what you suggest the next time I read one.  I&#8217;ve always felt Fraser, via Flashman, took every opportunity he had to stick a thumb in the Empire&#8217;s eye.</p>
<p>As you say, the Aubrey/Maturin books are excellent.  But what do you think O&#8217;Brien was doing at the end when he ran out of time for Napoleonic derring-do?  Secret history or alternate?</p>
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		<title>By: Marie Brennan</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/09/16/respecting-history/#comment-424</link>
		<author>Marie Brennan</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 19:00:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/09/16/respecting-history/#comment-424</guid>
		<description>Yes, the need for respect becomes much more obvious when the history is recent, and people are still around who remember it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, the need for respect becomes much more obvious when the history is recent, and people are still around who remember it.</p>
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		<title>By: Alma Alexander</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/09/16/respecting-history/#comment-423</link>
		<author>Alma Alexander</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 17:49:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/09/16/respecting-history/#comment-423</guid>
		<description>"Secrets of Jin Shei" was historical fantasy - basically rooted in imperial China but with a lot of 'different' stuff in there that made it possible for my story to take place. That didn't stop people from taking it as gospel and asking me which PARTICULAR period of Chinese history I was writing about. But that one was written as pure historical fantasy - lots of research went into it, but the story was pure me.

Its successor, "Embers of Heaven", deals with a Cultural Revolution China setting. And this felt very different to me - not least because there are people out there who have either lived through this period of history themselves or have immediate relatives who did - and not only did I have to treat the period with respect, I had to care about making it perfectly plain where I followed the "historical" line and where I diverged from it for story reasons. It was damned hard, sometimes.

I'm planning at least one other historical fantasy. Pray for me...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Secrets of Jin Shei&#8221; was historical fantasy - basically rooted in imperial China but with a lot of &#8216;different&#8217; stuff in there that made it possible for my story to take place. That didn&#8217;t stop people from taking it as gospel and asking me which PARTICULAR period of Chinese history I was writing about. But that one was written as pure historical fantasy - lots of research went into it, but the story was pure me.</p>
<p>Its successor, &#8220;Embers of Heaven&#8221;, deals with a Cultural Revolution China setting. And this felt very different to me - not least because there are people out there who have either lived through this period of history themselves or have immediate relatives who did - and not only did I have to treat the period with respect, I had to care about making it perfectly plain where I followed the &#8220;historical&#8221; line and where I diverged from it for story reasons. It was damned hard, sometimes.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m planning at least one other historical fantasy. Pray for me&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Marie Brennan</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/09/16/respecting-history/#comment-421</link>
		<author>Marie Brennan</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 16:09:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/09/16/respecting-history/#comment-421</guid>
		<description>Karen --

Yeah, I've written about that very gender problem before.  (I put it in the context of infant mortality rates, actually: if half of your kids don't live to be ten, then most women can't afford to not have children, which means going to war is unlikely.)  Part of my justification in Doppelganger was that magical healing made their lives generally healthier.  I never found a good way to insert the other part of the explanation, but the people in that culture believe not only in reincarnation, but in the notion that one might be reincarnated as either sex, making the differences between the two less meaningful.

Back to history, though -- of course you can't avoid having your own take on a person's life and personality, whether you're writing fiction or biography.  But in a biography, one is held to certain standards of evidence for one's depiction; I feel the same should be true for fiction.  So, you can give me a Doctor John Dee who's a con man, or one who's being conned, or one who's genuinely delusional, but if you give me a Doctor John Dee who's a neo-pagan earth-mother-worshipping Renaissance hippie (which apparently someone has done), then unless you're writing a weird alternate history where that makes sense, I'm going to call BS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karen &#8211;</p>
<p>Yeah, I&#8217;ve written about that very gender problem before.  (I put it in the context of infant mortality rates, actually: if half of your kids don&#8217;t live to be ten, then most women can&#8217;t afford to not have children, which means going to war is unlikely.)  Part of my justification in Doppelganger was that magical healing made their lives generally healthier.  I never found a good way to insert the other part of the explanation, but the people in that culture believe not only in reincarnation, but in the notion that one might be reincarnated as either sex, making the differences between the two less meaningful.</p>
<p>Back to history, though &#8212; of course you can&#8217;t avoid having your own take on a person&#8217;s life and personality, whether you&#8217;re writing fiction or biography.  But in a biography, one is held to certain standards of evidence for one&#8217;s depiction; I feel the same should be true for fiction.  So, you can give me a Doctor John Dee who&#8217;s a con man, or one who&#8217;s being conned, or one who&#8217;s genuinely delusional, but if you give me a Doctor John Dee who&#8217;s a neo-pagan earth-mother-worshipping Renaissance hippie (which apparently someone has done), then unless you&#8217;re writing a weird alternate history where that makes sense, I&#8217;m going to call BS.</p>
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		<title>By: Marie Brennan</title>
		<link>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/09/16/respecting-history/#comment-420</link>
		<author>Marie Brennan</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 15:59:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/09/16/respecting-history/#comment-420</guid>
		<description>Oh, certainly.  I don't mean to suggest one cannot skewer historical periods.  But there's a difference between mocking what they really did (because you've done your research) and mocking inaccurate stereotypes.

Kind of like my long-standing belief that the best parodies are the ones done by people who love the subject they're making fun of.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, certainly.  I don&#8217;t mean to suggest one cannot skewer historical periods.  But there&#8217;s a difference between mocking what they really did (because you&#8217;ve done your research) and mocking inaccurate stereotypes.</p>
<p>Kind of like my long-standing belief that the best parodies are the ones done by people who love the subject they&#8217;re making fun of.</p>
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