Comments on: The Disposable Woman http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/08/18/the-disposable-woman/ A mutual support group for SF/F Novelists Tue, 07 Oct 2008 11:48:08 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2.1 By: Naamen Tilahun http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/08/18/the-disposable-woman/#comment-310 Naamen Tilahun Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:02:33 +0000 http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/08/18/the-disposable-woman/#comment-310 I find the whole "woman can only be strong when her kids (or something else in the domestic or womanly sphere) is in danger" annoying as hell and very much a dealbreaker. Not to say that a female character can't protect her children or home but if that's the only time within the novel or series that she's shown any initiative or power I get very annoyed. I find the whole “woman can only be strong when her kids (or something else in the domestic or womanly sphere) is in danger” annoying as hell and very much a dealbreaker. Not to say that a female character can’t protect her children or home but if that’s the only time within the novel or series that she’s shown any initiative or power I get very annoyed.

]]> By: Ginger Weil http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/08/18/the-disposable-woman/#comment-198 Ginger Weil Sun, 26 Aug 2007 01:22:38 +0000 http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/08/18/the-disposable-woman/#comment-198 I also wandered in from Ms. Bear's LJ... My pet peeve is the "woman rescues child" storyline. Any time a story introduces a tough, hard-as-nails seeming woman and then quickly introduces a child who she must rescue from danger/death/sacrifice, I get irritated and want to kick something. I think this is because I don't see many (if any) books or movies where the woman rescues an adult man or another adult woman. The hierarchy is that man rescues woman, woman rescues child. I'm also irritated because I feel the message is that even if a woman seems hard, tough, competent, and deadly, secretly she is filled with this deep-wired maternal instinct. Or alternately, she is tough only because she must protect her child. The woman in these stories is not allowed to just be tough in the way male characters are allowed to be tough. (I do watch films with this theme because they often seem to be the only films starring tough women that I can find, but I have a lot of choice in tough women in books these days, so if I scent this plot in a book it is pretty much tossed aside.) I also wandered in from Ms. Bear’s LJ…

My pet peeve is the “woman rescues child” storyline. Any time a story introduces a tough, hard-as-nails seeming woman and then quickly introduces a child who she must rescue from danger/death/sacrifice, I get irritated and want to kick something. I think this is because I don’t see many (if any) books or movies where the woman rescues an adult man or another adult woman. The hierarchy is that man rescues woman, woman rescues child. I’m also irritated because I feel the message is that even if a woman seems hard, tough, competent, and deadly, secretly she is filled with this deep-wired maternal instinct. Or alternately, she is tough only because she must protect her child. The woman in these stories is not allowed to just be tough in the way male characters are allowed to be tough. (I do watch films with this theme because they often seem to be the only films starring tough women that I can find, but I have a lot of choice in tough women in books these days, so if I scent this plot in a book it is pretty much tossed aside.)

]]> By: Kelly J. Cooper http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/08/18/the-disposable-woman/#comment-185 Kelly J. Cooper Sat, 25 Aug 2007 06:08:16 +0000 http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/08/18/the-disposable-woman/#comment-185 Wandered in from Elizabeth Bear's LJ... I find the "woman has to get raped to get tough" cliché more annoying than the disposable woman. Yet another reason to rewatch ALIEN. Wandered in from Elizabeth Bear’s LJ…

I find the “woman has to get raped to get tough” cliché more annoying than the disposable woman.

Yet another reason to rewatch ALIEN.

]]> By: Kayla Shifrin http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/08/18/the-disposable-woman/#comment-166 Kayla Shifrin Thu, 23 Aug 2007 11:56:53 +0000 http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/08/18/the-disposable-woman/#comment-166 What I really hate--and it's related to the disposable woman--is the Man Who Is Irresistible for No Reason. This one shows up in contemporary 'realist' fiction all the time as well as in scifi/fantasy. He's the ordinary antihero jerk who gets laid by EVERY female character (who are all shallow, often bitchy, dependent, and usually gorgeous) and he's not even charming, let alone Bondlike. It's always obvious that this is the author's fantasy, and it's a major reason why I don't read much modern realism. What I really hate–and it’s related to the disposable woman–is the Man Who Is Irresistible for No Reason. This one shows up in contemporary ‘realist’ fiction all the time as well as in scifi/fantasy. He’s the ordinary antihero jerk who gets laid by EVERY female character (who are all shallow, often bitchy, dependent, and usually gorgeous) and he’s not even charming, let alone Bondlike. It’s always obvious that this is the author’s fantasy, and it’s a major reason why I don’t read much modern realism.

]]> By: Estara http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/08/18/the-disposable-woman/#comment-165 Estara Thu, 23 Aug 2007 07:04:56 +0000 http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/08/18/the-disposable-woman/#comment-165 re: Women in Refrigerators Here's the link to the site which originated that term http://www.unheardtaunts.com/wir/ re: Women in Refrigerators

Here’s the link to the site which originated that term
http://www.unheardtaunts.com/wir/

]]> By: Kate Elliott http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/08/18/the-disposable-woman/#comment-144 Kate Elliott Mon, 20 Aug 2007 09:21:51 +0000 http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/08/18/the-disposable-woman/#comment-144 Brittany - there's a whole 'other post (or series of posts) about pacing, tension, and introduction of a world and culture. Was it the morality element that made you struggle? That people were doing things that you couldn't sympathize with even though the author meant to suggest it was due to a different way of looking at the world? Or just the sheer weight of new material bogging you down? Brittany - there’s a whole ‘other post (or series of posts) about pacing, tension, and introduction of a world and culture. Was it the morality element that made you struggle? That people were doing things that you couldn’t sympathize with even though the author meant to suggest it was due to a different way of looking at the world? Or just the sheer weight of new material bogging you down?

]]> By: Kate Elliott http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/08/18/the-disposable-woman/#comment-143 Kate Elliott Mon, 20 Aug 2007 09:19:29 +0000 http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/08/18/the-disposable-woman/#comment-143 It's late, I'm making way too many small errors in these posts, and I'm too tired to go figure out how to edit (that's for another day). Tempest - I am totally agreed on The Guy I Don't Like. But really, are these guys really "the nice guys"? The truly nice guys always seem to be sidekicks, if they're allowed to be sidekicks. And what is it about love triangles especially that bugs you? As for rape, I can think of at least 3 novels that more or less started with a rape scene that I put down immediately, because I just couldn't go there and want to keep reading. Of course, being as I dislike it as a plot device, I've had to deal with exactly this in my most recent ms. Stephen - the omniscient hero! Another good one. I'm wondering if this is at all related to the hero of old "school stories" in which there was a golden boy (I use that term advisedly) who did everything right and who was admired by all the other boys and was of course the teacher's pet. It’s late, I’m making way too many small errors in these posts, and I’m too tired to go figure out how to edit (that’s for another day).

Tempest - I am totally agreed on The Guy I Don’t Like. But really, are these guys really “the nice guys”? The truly nice guys always seem to be sidekicks, if they’re allowed to be sidekicks. And what is it about love triangles especially that bugs you?

As for rape, I can think of at least 3 novels that more or less started with a rape scene that I put down immediately, because I just couldn’t go there and want to keep reading. Of course, being as I dislike it as a plot device, I’ve had to deal with exactly this in my most recent ms.

Stephen - the omniscient hero! Another good one. I’m wondering if this is at all related to the hero of old “school stories” in which there was a golden boy (I use that term advisedly) who did everything right and who was admired by all the other boys and was of course the teacher’s pet.

]]> By: Kate Elliott http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/08/18/the-disposable-woman/#comment-142 Kate Elliott Mon, 20 Aug 2007 09:11:49 +0000 http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/08/18/the-disposable-woman/#comment-142 Ted, well, I dunno, I don't mind it so much if the <i>guy</i> gets killed . . . . Nor do I necessarily want the 'death of the loved one as motivator' to go away, not if it is done well. But Stross really nailed in his post; what he said was exactly the sequence of thoughts i had when I hit that bit in the book. and I'm pretty forgiving of novels, on the whole. I think I'm less forgiving of film and tv. Ted, well, I dunno, I don’t mind it so much if the guy gets killed . . . .

Nor do I necessarily want the ‘death of the loved one as motivator’ to go away, not if it is done well. But Stross really nailed in his post; what he said was exactly the sequence of thoughts i had when I hit that bit in the book.

and I’m pretty forgiving of novels, on the whole. I think I’m less forgiving of film and tv.

]]> By: Kate Elliott http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/08/18/the-disposable-woman/#comment-141 Kate Elliott Mon, 20 Aug 2007 09:06:39 +0000 http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/08/18/the-disposable-woman/#comment-141 Characters Marked For Death - I can deal with this under certain circumstances, but it's better if - as in the example Ted uses from Alias (never seen by me) - it's done in an interesting way that has an actual impact on the unfolding plot rather than an artificial one. Similar, I suppose, to "Captain, we have 2 minutes until the engines explore" tension "device." Characters Marked For Death - I can deal with this under certain circumstances, but it’s better if - as in the example Ted uses from Alias (never seen by me) - it’s done in an interesting way that has an actual impact on the unfolding plot rather than an artificial one. Similar, I suppose, to “Captain, we have 2 minutes until the engines explore” tension “device.”

]]> By: Kate Elliott http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/08/18/the-disposable-woman/#comment-140 Kate Elliott Mon, 20 Aug 2007 09:02:08 +0000 http://www.sfnovelists.com/2007/08/18/the-disposable-woman/#comment-140 Marie, it's interesting how differently we all read, because I think I can put up with small things that bug me and which build up more than single things that make me lose my suspension of disbelief. Forex, with Stranger in a Strange Land, it was a single make or break moment, and that was it for me for the book. Marie, it’s interesting how differently we all read, because I think I can put up with small things that bug me and which build up more than single things that make me lose my suspension of disbelief. Forex, with Stranger in a Strange Land, it was a single make or break moment, and that was it for me for the book.

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